2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Tenochtitlan]

The problem with some people's perception of Muslims is that it's oversimplified. Some people see all Muslims as Fundamentalist Muslims. Or they believe that the Fundamentalist Muslims taint the entire religion. It doesn't work like that, unless you are also willing to believe that fundamentalist Christians living in Uganda who want to execute g-ays taint the entire worldwide group of Christians. 

 

I recognize that there's a large and scary Fundamentalist Muslim movement going on that wants to take the Muslim world back to the 7th century AD, and concern about that is warranted, but just...that's not all Muslims, and very few Muslims in the US subscribe to that ideology. It's important to keep that in mind, obvious though it may sound.

[TT-SEA]

He is a real piece of work for sure. I still clearly remember my horror when I watched people jumping from the towers to a certain death. Can you even begin to imagine having to make such an awful choice. A truly horrifying day. Actually being old enough to clearly remember makes it a lot more real.

 

Ironically though... you said McVeigh had good cause for blowing up the federal building in Oklahoma City killing many innocent people including children.  He just went a little over the line based on the timing.

 

He killed 168 people and injured 680 others... and the blast damaged 324 other buildings in a 16-block radius.  He parked the Ryder truck full of explosives in the parking garage right under the daycare which was full of kids that morning.

 

McVeigh's later response to the range of casualties was: "I didn't define the rules of engagement in this conflict. The rules, if not written down, are defined by the aggressor. It was brutal, no holds barred. Women and kids were killed at Waco and Ruby Ridge. You put back in [the government's] faces exactly what they're giving out".    

 

Sounds familiar to the Islamic terrorists saying they are punishing America for aggression and occupation in their countries.   

 

Its the killing of innocent people over a perceived greater cause.   One you find horrific and the other one is understandable but could have been done better.    

 

You are pretty simple-minded.    It makes the world easier to understand.   Black and white.  

[Front Ranger]

One would also think it's obvious not all Muslims are violent animals.

Of course, no one said all Muslims are violent animals.

[Front Ranger]

Ironically though... you said McVeigh had good cause for blowing up the federal building in Oklahoma City killing many innocent people including children. He just went a little over the line based on the timing.

 

He killed 168 people and injured 680 others... and the blast damaged 324 other buildings in a 16-block radius. He parked the Ryder truck full of explosives in the parking garage right under the daycare which was full of kids that morning.

 

McVeigh's later response to the range of casualties was: "I didn't define the rules of engagement in this conflict. The rules, if not written down, are defined by the aggressor. It was brutal, no holds barred. Women and kids were killed at Waco and Ruby Ridge. You put back in [the government's] faces exactly what they're giving out".

 

Sounds familiar to the Islamic terrorists saying they are punishing America for aggression and occupation in their countries.

 

Its the killing of innocent people over a perceived greater cause. One you find horrific and the other one is understandable but could have been done better.

 

You are pretty simple-minded. It makes the world easier to understand. Black and white.

There's significant differences, though. Jihad is not just about killing those viewed as oppressive or occupying your country. That's a reason given, but it's generally not the primary motivation.

[TT-SEA]

There's significant differences, though. Jihad is not just about killing those viewed as oppressive or occupying your country. That's a reason given, but it's generally not the primary motivation.

 

 

OK Jared.   Jim is right then.   

 

I guess even on domestic terrorism you need to qualify my condemnation.   Have to walk the middle of the road.   

[Front Ranger]

OK Jared. Jim is right then.

 

I guess even on domestic terrorism you need to qualify my condemnation. Have to walk the middle of the road.

See, it doesn't have to be like this. I didn't say Jim was right about Oklahoma City. He's WAY too sympathetic towards McVeigh, IMO.

 

That doesn't change the fact that you compared McVeigh's rationale and motivations to Islamic terrorists. And I pointed out that there were significant differences you didn't mention. I do think your correct in that all terrorists believe in killing innocent people for a greater cause.

 

Doesn't mean I'm saying your wrong, Jim's right. That would be a pretty black/white interpretation.

[TT-SEA]

See, it doesn't have to be like this. I didn't say Jim was right about Oklahoma City. He's WAY too sympathetic towards McVeigh, IMO.

 

That doesn't change the fact that you compared McVeigh's rationale and motivations to Islamic terrorists. And I pointed out that there were significant differences you didn't mention. I do think your correct in that all terrorists believe in killing innocent people for a greater cause.

 

Doesn't mean I'm saying your wrong, Jim's right. That would be a pretty black/white interpretation.

 

No... I said it was ironic that Jim basically praises an evil act of domestic terrorism that killed many innocent Americans (timing was the main issue) but finds another act of Islamic terrorism tragic and shocking.     You criticize my post on technicalities.  

 

The acts were similar... taking down iconic buildings with innocent people being killed.   And the motivations were similar on the surface as retribution for America's aggression.   

 

I don't give a crap about the specific details of why people find it their duty to commit mass killings and cause chaos.   Its all done with a perceived sense of self-righteousness and its pure evil.

 

In other words... the 9/11 terrorists and McVeigh are the same in my eyes.  

[Guest happ]

As a g.a.y. Christian I have experienced hostility/ detestation from other Christians. When the new cathedral was built I donated generously but received a cool reception once the monsignor realized I was "out" [btw the # of homosexual priests is quite extraordinary].  Christians can be hateful but must be careful to not violate federal laws / ie same-sex marriage.

 

Moslems, on the other hand, can use religion as a weapon to control sexuality/ women, in my opinion.  Orlando is still too fresh a memory to feel comfortable with some Islamic tenets, at least for me.

[Money]

New Politico poll:

 

Trump approval rating:

 

48% Approve 

45% Disapprove

 

More people now support Obamacare than before. 41% feel like this country is heading in the right direction compared to 29% who felt the same way after Trump was elected

 

Link: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/obamacare-repeal-replace-poll-235245

[Deweydog]

As a g.a.y. Christian I have experienced hostility/ detestation from other Christians. When the new cathedral was built I donated generously but received a cool reception once the monsignor realized I was "out" [btw the # of homosexual priests is quite extraordinary]. Many Christians are truly hateful but must be careful to not violate federal laws / ie same-sex marriage.

 

Moslems, on the other hand, can use religion as a weapon to control sexuality/ women, in my opinion. Orlando is still too fresh a memory to feel comfortable with some Islamic tenets, at least for me.

Xenophobe.

[Phil]

As a g.a.y. Christian I have experienced hostility/ detestation from other Christians. When the new cathedral was built I donated generously but received a cool reception once the monsignor realized I was "out" [btw the # of homosexual priests is quite extraordinary]. Christians can be hateful but must be careful to not violate federal laws / ie same-sex marriage.

 

Moslems, on the other hand, can use religion as a weapon to control sexuality/ women, in my opinion. Orlando is still too fresh a memory to feel comfortable with some Islamic tenets, at least for me.

I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, there are many hateful, misguided people in this world. I'm not religious, but I can imagine it'd be difficult to maintain faith in a religion under said bigotry.

 

On second thought, I guess we're all "misguided" in some way or another. Would be great if we could all find a way to accept each others' differences, whether they be political or religious. It shouldn't be a difficult thing to do..the violence being perpetuated over religious differences is the height of arrogance and hubris, in my opinion, and often directly contradicts the very teachings being argued over.

[Guest happ]

Phil, on 22 Feb 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, there are many hateful, misguided people in this world. I'm not religious, but I can imagine it'd be difficult to maintain faith in a religion under said bigotry.

 

On second thought, I guess we're all "misguided" in some way or another. Would be great if we could all find a way to accept each others' differences, whether they be political or religious. It shouldn't be a difficult thing to do..the violence being perpetuated over religious differences is the height of arrogance and hubris, in my opinion, and often directly contradicts the very teachings being argued over.

 

Atheists are my best friends, really

[Deweydog]

Atheists are my best friends, really

We should totally hang out!

[epiceast]

Ironically though... you said McVeigh had good cause for blowing up the federal building in Oklahoma City killing many innocent people including children.  He just went a little over the line based on the timing.

 

He killed 168 people and injured 680 others... and the blast damaged 324 other buildings in a 16-block radius.  He parked the Ryder truck full of explosives in the parking garage right under the daycare which was full of kids that morning.

 

McVeigh's later response to the range of casualties was: "I didn't define the rules of engagement in this conflict. The rules, if not written down, are defined by the aggressor. It was brutal, no holds barred. Women and kids were killed at Waco and Ruby Ridge. You put back in [the government's] faces exactly what they're giving out".    

 

Sounds familiar to the Islamic terrorists saying they are punishing America for aggression and occupation in their countries.   

 

Its the killing of innocent people over a perceived greater cause.   One you find horrific and the other one is understandable but could have been done better.    

 

You are pretty simple-minded.    It makes the world easier to understand.   Black and white.  

Don't forget Breivik(Norway). But realistically right-wing terrorism by muslims is on an order of magnitude(or maybe even two) more likely than other types of right wing terrorism. Unless you want to count the 3000 people that died in the last 50 years as a result of North Irish troubles(Catholics vs Protestants). 

Short history lesson for right-wingers in this thread.

[BLI snowman]

Don't forget Breivik(Norway). But realistically right-wing terrorism by muslims is on an order of magnitude(or maybe even two) more likely than other types of right wing terrorism. Unless you want to count the 3000 people that died in the last 50 years as a result of North Irish troubles(Catholics vs Protestants). 

Short history lesson for right-wingers in this thread.

 

Seems like an odd comparison, but the IRA/Provisional IRA was a politically left group, FWIW.

[Money]

Project Vertitas is set to release hundreds of hours of unedited footage inside the CNN newsroom showing the corruption that goes on. James said he's been working on this for awhile and these tapes will be unedited showing the corruption.

[Tenochtitlan]

Project Vertitas is set to release hundreds of hours of unedited footage inside the CNN newsroom showing the corruption that goes on. James said he's been working on this for awhile and these tapes will be unedited showing the corruption.

"James Edward O'Keefe III (born June 28, 1984) is an American conservative political activist.^[2][3] He produces secretly recorded undercover audio and video encounters, some of which he then edits in order to misrepresent persons as having said things they did not say,^[4] with figures and workers in academic, governmental and social service organizations, purporting to show abusive or allegedly illegal behavior by employees and/or representatives of those organizations. He gained national attention for his video recordings of workers at ACORN offices in 2009, his arrest and guilty plea in 2010 for entering the federal office of then-U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA) under false pretenses, and the release of videos of conversations with two high-ranking, now former, NPR executives in 2011."

 

Sounds like a highly reputable sort of guy

[Tenochtitlan]

Trump is repealing the federal guideline for the trans-people bathroom order, where they can use whichever bathroom they identify with.

 

He believes it should be up to the states instead of the federal government and I whole-heartedly agree.

Which protections for individuals do you believe should be up to the states, and which, if any, do you believe should be up to the federal government?

[epiceast]

Seems like an odd comparison, but the IRA/Provisional IRA was a politically left group, FWIW.

Yes, but it was driven by right-wing ideas on both sides(nationalism/religion).

[TT-SEA]

New poll... people trust the media over Trump (52-37).     And only 39% approval rating.  

 

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2431

 

 

All fake I am sure!  

 

FiveThirtyEight rates this poll as an A- overall.    Much higher than Rasmussen.  

[Front Ranger]

No... I said it was ironic that Jim basically praises an evil act of domestic terrorism that killed many innocent Americans (timing was the main issue) but finds another act of Islamic terrorism tragic and shocking.     You criticize my post on technicalities.

 

The acts were similar... taking down iconic buildings with innocent people being killed.   And the motivations were similar on the surface as retribution for America's aggression.   

 

I don't give a crap about the specific details of why people find it their duty to commit mass killings and cause chaos.   Its all done with a perceived sense of self-righteousness and its pure evil.

 

In other words... the 9/11 terrorists and McVeigh are the same in my eyes.  

 

This is part of the problem. Like Jesse, sometimes you view all additions to your points or different takes as mean criticisms or direct attacks. That's not the intent.

 

The second bolded part ignores my point from before. They may have given some similar rationale for why they committed the atrocities, but if you know anything about Jihad or have studied the motivations of the 9/11 terrorists like I have, it's obvious that was just a front. 9/11 was inherently due to Islamic extremism, not retribution for something the U.S. had done.

[Tenochtitlan]

 if you know anything about Jihad or have studied the motivations of the 9/11 terrorists like I have, it's obvious that was just a front. 9/11 was inherently due to Islamic extremism, not retribution for something the U.S. had done.

This is one conclusion that people drawn about their motivations, but is not a consensus among scholars. 

[Front Ranger]

Yes, but it was driven by right-wing ideas on both sides(nationalism/religion).

 

You're starting to group some different things together.

 

It sounds like you're trying to make the argument that the extreme right is more dangerous than the extreme left. Hard to say, but since you mentioned history, I'd suggest looking at what's happened under some Marxist and communist regimes.

[Front Ranger]

This is one conclusion that people drawn about their motivations, but is not a consensus among scholars. 

 

A fundamental tenet of Al Qaeda is to rid the world of non-Muslim influences, creating a "pure" Muslim way of life.

 

I've studied this stuff, man. This has nothing to do with politics, it's just the nature of Islamic terrorists, for the most part.

[Tenochtitlan]

You're starting to group some different things together.

 

It sounds like you're trying to make the argument that the extreme right is more dangerous than the extreme left. Hard to say, but since you mentioned history, I'd suggest looking at what's happened under some Marxist and communist regimes.

Anything too far to one side or the other seems dangerous. The funny thing is though, that the problem seems to be authoritarian. The most dangerous communist and right-wing regimes were so dangerous because they misused their authority...and you know, killed so many people as a result.

[Tenochtitlan]

One of the primary missions of Al Qaeda is to rid the world of non-Muslim influences, creating a "pure" Muslim way of life.

 

I've studied this stuff, man. This has nothing to do with politics, it's just the nature of Islamic terrorists, for the most part.

I mean, even if you look up the Wikipedia article for "Motives for the September 11 Attacks," it's clear there's more to it than that. I'm not too convinced by "I've studied this stuff," because many people have studied this stuff and they aren't all in agreement with each other.

[BLI snowman]

Yes, but it was driven by right-wing ideas on both sides(nationalism/religion).

Not sure I would agree that either of those principles are inherently exclusive to the right wing at all, they're both generally interwoven across the spectrum at a given group's convenience.

[Front Ranger]

Anything too far to one side or the other seems dangerous. The funny thing is though, that the problem seems to be authoritarian. The most dangerous communist and right-wing regimes were so dangerous because they misused their authority...and you know, killed so many people as a result.

 

Absolutely. Extreme power tends to corrupt extremely.

[Front Ranger]

I mean, even if you look up the Wikipedia article for "Motives for the September 11 Attacks," it's clear there's more to it than that. I'm not too convinced by "I've studied this stuff," because many people have studied this stuff and they aren't all in agreement with each other.

 

Well, when it comes to this, I've studied more than Wikipedia. 

 

Yeah, you'll always have people debating this type of thing, but there's no denying Al Qaeda's mission and general way of thinking, and they were the organization behind the attacks.

 

And just look at all the attacks they've committed in other countries that were not politically involved in the same way as the U.S.

[Tenochtitlan]

Well, when it comes to this, I've studied more than Wikipedia. 

 

Yeah, you'll always have people debating this type of thing, but there's no denying Al Qaeda's mission and general way of thinking, and they were the organization behind the attacks.

I'm glad you have. I'm just saying that there are multiple opinions even among scholars, so I will be undecided about their motivations until I read more about it. But I am guessing that it is some combination of religious ideology and their resentment of American imperialism 

[Front Ranger]

I'm glad you have. I'm just saying that there are multiple opinions even among scholars, so I will be undecided about their motivations until I read more about it. But I am guessing that it is some combination of religious ideology and their resentment of American imperialism 

 

See my edit. Though 9/11 is their most well known attack, they've committed many, many others in many countries that could not be logically tied in any way to American imperialism.

 

Sure, that may have played some role in 9/11, but it's not a cut and dried thing like McVeigh and Oklahoma City. McVeigh was not part of a larger organization (Al Qaeda), which is part of a larger extreme religious ideal (Jihad, extremist Islam). McVeigh was a rogue loner acting out against his government.

 

For Tim to say the motivations were basically the same is just not accurate.

[Tenochtitlan]

See my edit. Though 9/11 is their most well known attack, they've committed many, many others in many countries that could not be logically tied in any way to American imperialism.

 

Sure, that may have played some role in 9/11, but it's not a cut and dried thing like McVeigh and Oklahoma City. McVeigh was not part of a larger organization (Al Qaeda), which is part of a larger extreme religious ideal (Jihad, extremist Islam). McVeigh was a rogue loner acting out against his government.

 

For Tim to say the motivations were basically the same is just not accurate.

Yeah, I think there are other attacks committed by Islamist terrorists whose motivation is more clearly just religious. However, saying "they" is a bit misleading because the people behind 9/11 are very different from the people in charge of ISIL.

[Front Ranger]

I don't think their motivations are the same, just that I doubt religious ideology alone was the reason for the attacks.

 

Doesn't matter. My point was that Tim was saying they were the same. They weren't.

[Tenochtitlan]

Doesn't matter. My point was that Tim was saying they were the same. They weren't.

OK, I was still responding to your post though, even if your point was something else. 

[Front Ranger]

OK, I was still responding to your post though, even if your point was something else. 

 

Fair enough. As long as we're in agreement than Tim was off his rocker!

[TT-SEA]

Fair enough. As long as we're in agreement than Tim was off his rocker!

 

I never said their motivation was exactly the same.   I said that I don't care.

 

You can't be shocked by one and basically say the other was warranted but the timing was off... they were both pure evil.

[Tenochtitlan]

Fair enough. As long as we're in agreement than Tim was off his rocker!

It's not true that the motivations were all the same, but they may have something in common. the other part of Tim's post, where he said that someone praised the Oklahoma City Bombings but decried 9/11, well he's right that that's not a good way to compare the two because they're both awful.

[Front Ranger]

I never said their motivation was exactly the same.   I said that I don't care.

 

You can't be shocked by one and basically say the other was warranted but the timing was off... they were both pure evil.

 

I believe I already said I don't agree at all with Jim's take on OKC. Though you did exaggerate what he said a bit, especially after he clarified. 

[Front Ranger]

It's not true that the motivations were all the same, but they may have something in common. the other part of Tim's post, where he said that someone praised the Oklahoma City Bombings but decried 9/11, well he's right that that's not a good way to compare the two because they're both awful.

 

I do think it's important to acknowledge the differences, though. Preventing/fighting attacks by a global organization like ISIS and lone wackos like McVeigh are two different things.

 

Understanding where each are coming from is part of that.

[Money]

"James Edward O'Keefe III (born June 28, 1984) is an American conservative political activist.^[3] He produces secretly recorded undercover audio and video encounters, some of which he then edits in order to misrepresent persons as having said things they did not say,

 

^{Sounds like a highly reputable sort of guy}

 

^{Well, he got the footage from a camerman inside the CNN who was fed up with the corruption and leaked the footage to him.}