IbrChris Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 In my opinion, the most incredible 120+ temperature recorded in the United States was the 121 at Steele North Dakota on 7/6/1936. It does seem to be plausible when comparing it to other weather stations in the region (New Salem hit 119). As far as the Lake Havasu readings go, they are probably over-exposed. As above, the other stations near Lake Havasu City reached 120 or 121, but no readings were close to 128. Further the 1967 to 1991 station at Lake Havasu didn't have any readings higher than the 121 on 6/27/1990. The new station reported at least 27 readings hotter than this since 1991. It doesn't seem likely, especially when looking at the other nearby stations, even though there were some impressive heat waves during that time period. Mesquite Nevada also has an impressive 123 on 7/17/1998, but it may be a little too high? Imperial also reported a 124 on 7/6/1905. They also reported a 124 on 8/16/1903. I don't know the validity of the latter one. Bullhead City was 126 that day, obviously if nothing else were above 120-121 I would have dismissed the 128...granted I think something like 125-126 was more likely that day at LHC. It seems like each event has a slightly different nature...sometimes the core of the heat is centered toward CA...other times toward AZ, sometimes as far east as Gila Bend/Casa Grande. It doesn't seem to be a standard thermal regime across the entire region. This makes sense because Death Valley is far enough removed from the lower Colorado Valley that if a weather system brings scattered high clouds to Death Valley it can be clear and a couple deg hotter to the SE. Of course in summertime diurnal convection trends can influence highs and I'd venture to guess when we are talking 120+ any clouds blocking insolation have a big impact. Topography also plays a role with the area around Bullhead City/LHC having more of a canyon topography than Yuma. I do agree with you that LHC is probably a bit overexposed in some of the mid 1990s events, though NCEI hasn't removed the values with QC scrubbing like it has for many other stations. Quote The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbrChris Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Mecca elevation is -187' on the marshland shore of the Salton Sea basin. Average May-Sept minimums are much cooler than Death Valley or Phoenix/ Las Vegas [@ 1000' + elevations] Average minimumsMay 62.6June 68.5July 75.2August 75.4September: 68.9 Death ValleyMay: 72.7June: 81.2July 88.0August: 85.7September: 75.6 No urban heat island...Phoenix used to average upper 70s for lows in July in the early 1900s. Death Valley is a different animal entirely of course. Quote The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Bullhead City was 126 that day, obviously if nothing else were above 120-121 I would have dismissed the 128...granted I think something like 125-126 was more likely that day at LHC. Bullhead City and Laughlin did record a 126 and 125 that day, but I was referring to the stations closer to Lake Havasu City. Both stations in Parker, for example "only" recorded a 121 as did Needles. It does seem a little strange since Lake Havasu is right between the two, but I guess it could be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbrChris Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Bullhead City and Laughlin did record a 126 and 125 that day, but I was referring to the stations closer to Lake Havasu City. Both stations in Parker, for example "only" recorded a 121 as did Needles. It does seem a little strange since Lake Havasu is right between the two, but I guess it could be possible. Ah gotcha...for some reason I was thinking those two stations (Bullhead and LHC) were closer together than they actually are. Only thing I can think of is some sort of patchy cloud cover/convection or a breeze off the Colorado (assuming the stations are close to the river). I would say the reading is probably overexposed by 1-2 deg at least...maybe 3-4. Quote The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Only thing I can think of is some sort of patchy cloud cover/convection or a breeze off the Colorado (assuming the stations are close to the river). Possible.I would say the reading is probably overexposed by 1-2 deg at least...maybe 3-4. It is interesting to compare the summer extremes for the pre-1991 station with the post 1991 station. The two stations are very close together. http://images.summitpost.org/original/987347.JPG http://images.summitpost.org/original/987348.JPG The new station has beat the old station's all time record at least 27 times between 1991 and 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbrChris Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Possible. It is interesting to compare the summer extremes for the pre-1991 station with the post 1991 station. The two stations are very close together. The new station has beat the old station's all time record at least 27 times between 1991 and 2012.Interesting...yeah the new station definitely appears warmer. Have you located both on Google Maps to verify there's not much difference in terms of proximity to the river? Quote The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Have you located both on Google Maps to verify there's not much difference in terms of proximity to the river? The first station is very close to the lake and the second one is 0.15 miles from the lake. It still seems like a lot of difference for a short distance, but there should be some difference. I could see that amount of change in a place like Coastal California, but it does seem too much change for a desert reservoir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest happ Posted November 15, 2016 Report Share Posted November 15, 2016 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/14/death-valley-is-alive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Reid Posted December 15, 2017 Report Share Posted December 15, 2017 I knew that the 1913 readings were probably bogus, but what makes the 1960 reading questionable? 1960 did have a big heat wave out west and many places had their record highs then. 129 was also hit on 7/1/2013, 7/7/2007, 7/18/1998, and 7/20/2005, so the 1960 reading does seem plausible. Does anyone know why the 1960 reading is considered to be questionable?Hi Scott --- the 129F at GR on July 18, 1960, is very suspect when the GR maximums for this heat wave are compared to maximums at Cow Creek, just three miles up the road and just 20 feet higher. Cow Creek summer maximums were typically a degree or two warmer than at GR. From my blog, here are the daily maximums from July 16 to July 20: Cow Creek maximums for the hottest period , from July 16 to 20:125, 126, 126, 126, 126and for Greenland Ranch for the same period:124, 124, 129, 124, 124 I need to dig to see if a thermograph was running in the GR shelter during this timeframe. A thermograph in a temporary shelter at Badwater showed "only"128F on July 18. GR is/was almost never hotter than Badwater. These discrepancies strongly suggest the 129F max at GR in July 1960 is not authentic. A recorded max of 128F at Cow Creek was officially rejected by the USWB in the 1950s, but I don't think the 129F at GR in 1960 has been invalidated. It is my contention only that the most reliable maximum at GR from 1911 to 1961 is 127F. Below is more about the July 129F max at GR, and you can read all about it and see some fancy charts here (halfway down for July 1960): http://stormbruiser.com/chase/2016/08/23/unravelling-death-valleys-134f-temperature-record-part-4-historic-heat-waves/ The form for Greenland Ranch for July, 1960, shows a maximum of 129F on July 18th. The entry appears to be erroneous when a comparison is made between Greenland Ranch and Cow Creek maximums on the other days this month. Cow Creek, only three miles up the road, routinely averaged a degree or so warmer than Greenland Ranch on July afternoons from 1935 to 1960. For July, 1960, the average maximum at Cow Creek was 119.5F, 1.4 degrees (F) warmer than the 118.1F at Greenland Ranch. Of the 31 days for July, 1960, the two stations had an identical maximum temperature on only one date. On 11 dates, Cow Creek was warmer by one degree (F), and on 13 dates, Cow Creek was warmer by two degrees. Cow Creek’s maximum was warmer than that at Greenland Ranch by three degrees on three days. Greenland Ranch reported a warmer maximum three times: twice by one degree, and once by three degrees. On the 18th, Greenland Ranch reported 129F and Cow Creek reported 126F.The differences in maximum temperature between the two stations for the hot spell from the 13th to the 23rd: Cow Creek warmer by 1, 0, 1, 1, 2, -3, 2, 2, 2, 3, and 1.Cow Creek maximums for the hottest period , from July 16 to 20:125, 126, 126, 126, 126and for Greenland Ranch for the same period:124, 124, 129, 124, 124Why would Greenland Ranch suddenly be the warmer station on the 18th, and by three degrees? It seems likely that the Greenland Ranch maximum thermometer was misread by the observer. The “set max” temperature here at about 4 p.m. on the 18th was 123F, which does little to support the 129F report. Usually the temperature at 4 p.m. is just a couple of degrees lower than the day’s maximum. At Cow Creek on the 18th, the maximum was 126F and the “set max” temperature at about 4 p.m. was 125F. Since the 129F at Greenland Ranch on the 18th this month is suspect, the maximum for this date is reduced to 124F, and the maximum for the month at Greenland Ranch is changed from 129F to 124F. The highest reliable maximum temperature at Greenland Ranch for its 50 summers from 1911 to 1960 remains at 127F. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest happ Posted December 16, 2017 Report Share Posted December 16, 2017 Hi Scott --- the 129F at GR on July 18, 1960, is very suspect when the GR maximums for this heat wave are compared to maximums at Cow Creek, just three miles up the road and just 20 feet higher. Cow Creek summer maximums were typically a degree or two warmer than at GR. From my blog, here are the daily maximums from July 16 to July 20: Cow Creek maximums for the hottest period , from July 16 to 20:125, 126, 126, 126, 126and for Greenland Ranch for the same period:124, 124, 129, 124, 124 I need to dig to see if a thermograph was running in the GR shelter during this timeframe. A thermograph in a temporary shelter at Badwater showed "only"128F on July 18. GR is/was almost never hotter than Badwater. These discrepancies strongly suggest the 129F max at GR in July 1960 is not authentic. A recorded max of 128F at Cow Creek was officially rejected by the USWB in the 1950s, but I don't think the 129F at GR in 1960 has been invalidated. It is my contention only that the most reliable maximum at GR from 1911 to 1961 is 127F. Below is more about the July 129F max at GR, and you can read all about it and see some fancy charts here (halfway down for July 1960): http://stormbruiser.com/chase/2016/08/23/unravelling-death-valleys-134f-temperature-record-part-4-historic-heat-waves/ The form for Greenland Ranch for July, 1960, shows a maximum of 129F on July 18th. The entry appears to be erroneous when a comparison is made between Greenland Ranch and Cow Creek maximums on the other days this month. Cow Creek, only three miles up the road, routinely averaged a degree or so warmer than Greenland Ranch on July afternoons from 1935 to 1960. For July, 1960, the average maximum at Cow Creek was 119.5F, 1.4 degrees (F) warmer than the 118.1F at Greenland Ranch. Of the 31 days for July, 1960, the two stations had an identical maximum temperature on only one date. On 11 dates, Cow Creek was warmer by one degree (F), and on 13 dates, Cow Creek was warmer by two degrees. Cow Creek’s maximum was warmer than that at Greenland Ranch by three degrees on three days. Greenland Ranch reported a warmer maximum three times: twice by one degree, and once by three degrees. On the 18th, Greenland Ranch reported 129F and Cow Creek reported 126F.The differences in maximum temperature between the two stations for the hot spell from the 13th to the 23rd: Cow Creek warmer by 1, 0, 1, 1, 2, -3, 2, 2, 2, 3, and 1.Cow Creek maximums for the hottest period , from July 16 to 20:125, 126, 126, 126, 126and for Greenland Ranch for the same period:124, 124, 129, 124, 124Why would Greenland Ranch suddenly be the warmer station on the 18th, and by three degrees? It seems likely that the Greenland Ranch maximum thermometer was misread by the observer. The “set max” temperature here at about 4 p.m. on the 18th was 123F, which does little to support the 129F report. Usually the temperature at 4 p.m. is just a couple of degrees lower than the day’s maximum. At Cow Creek on the 18th, the maximum was 126F and the “set max” temperature at about 4 p.m. was 125F. Since the 129F at Greenland Ranch on the 18th this month is suspect, the maximum for this date is reduced to 124F, and the maximum for the month at Greenland Ranch is changed from 129F to 124F. The highest reliable maximum temperature at Greenland Ranch for its 50 summers from 1911 to 1960 remains at 127F. Welcome Bill, glad to have your scholarly input. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Hi Scott --- the 129F at GR on July 18, 1960, is very suspect when the GR maximums for this heat wave are compared to maximums at Cow Creek, just three miles up the road and just 20 feet higher. Cow Creek summer maximums were typically a degree or two warmer than at GR. From my blog, here are the daily maximums from July 16 to July 20: Cow Creek maximums for the hottest period , from July 16 to 20:125, 126, 126, 126, 126and for Greenland Ranch for the same period:124, 124, 129, 124, 124 I need to dig to see if a thermograph was running in the GR shelter during this timeframe. A thermograph in a temporary shelter at Badwater showed "only"128F on July 18. GR is/was almost never hotter than Badwater. These discrepancies strongly suggest the 129F max at GR in July 1960 is not authentic. A recorded max of 128F at Cow Creek was officially rejected by the USWB in the 1950s, but I don't think the 129F at GR in 1960 has been invalidated. It is my contention only that the most reliable maximum at GR from 1911 to 1961 is 127F. Below is more about the July 129F max at GR, and you can read all about it and see some fancy charts here (halfway down for July 1960): http://stormbruiser.com/chase/2016/08/23/unravelling-death-valleys-134f-temperature-record-part-4-historic-heat-waves/ The form for Greenland Ranch for July, 1960, shows a maximum of 129F on July 18th. The entry appears to be erroneous when a comparison is made between Greenland Ranch and Cow Creek maximums on the other days this month. Cow Creek, only three miles up the road, routinely averaged a degree or so warmer than Greenland Ranch on July afternoons from 1935 to 1960. For July, 1960, the average maximum at Cow Creek was 119.5F, 1.4 degrees (F) warmer than the 118.1F at Greenland Ranch. Of the 31 days for July, 1960, the two stations had an identical maximum temperature on only one date. On 11 dates, Cow Creek was warmer by one degree (F), and on 13 dates, Cow Creek was warmer by two degrees. Cow Creek’s maximum was warmer than that at Greenland Ranch by three degrees on three days. Greenland Ranch reported a warmer maximum three times: twice by one degree, and once by three degrees. On the 18th, Greenland Ranch reported 129F and Cow Creek reported 126F.The differences in maximum temperature between the two stations for the hot spell from the 13th to the 23rd: Cow Creek warmer by 1, 0, 1, 1, 2, -3, 2, 2, 2, 3, and 1.Cow Creek maximums for the hottest period , from July 16 to 20:125, 126, 126, 126, 126and for Greenland Ranch for the same period:124, 124, 129, 124, 124Why would Greenland Ranch suddenly be the warmer station on the 18th, and by three degrees? It seems likely that the Greenland Ranch maximum thermometer was misread by the observer. The “set max” temperature here at about 4 p.m. on the 18th was 123F, which does little to support the 129F report. Usually the temperature at 4 p.m. is just a couple of degrees lower than the day’s maximum. At Cow Creek on the 18th, the maximum was 126F and the “set max” temperature at about 4 p.m. was 125F. Since the 129F at Greenland Ranch on the 18th this month is suspect, the maximum for this date is reduced to 124F, and the maximum for the month at Greenland Ranch is changed from 129F to 124F. The highest reliable maximum temperature at Greenland Ranch for its 50 summers from 1911 to 1960 remains at 127F. On the other hand this would seem to illustrate the Greenland Ranch thermometer was properly exposed / protected. We will never know for sure. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Reid Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Nope --- we will "never know for sure" on most of these Death Valley records! And as "The Snow Wizard" mentions, the Greenland Ranch thermometer shelter was indeed properly exposed ---- it was very, very well-exposed, based on the photographs available. You might be interested in a recent blog entry by me regarding the Greenland Ranch weather station and the early observers, including Denton --- http://stormbruiser.com/chase/2017/11/30/unravelling-death-valleys-134f-temperature-record-part-6-observer-oscar-a-denton/ The current Death Valley weather station is NOT as well exposed as the Greenland Ranch station was, apparently. A gradual increase in vegetation (bushes and trees) and buildings to the south of the DV station in the past 20-40 years has decreased the air movement through the station site. Slower wind speeds through the current Death Valley site promote warmer maximums because air heated along the bare ground is permitted to build a little more, comparably. Since the current station site has managed "only" 129F since 1961 (despite the poorer ventilation above bare ground), how does one explain maximums of 129, 130, 131 and 134F in July, 1913, at a better-exposed location above sod (especially when these maximums are not supported by maximums at surrounding stations)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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