March 2019 Weather Discussion in the PNW

[MossMan]

Those would be new March records at SEA. Absolutely stupendously incredible!! So hard to get record warmth like this these days, we need to really enjoy it when it comes!

Indeed!

[Phil]

Where exactly the station is sited is key.

 

Near/next to any buildings (with the possible exception of the north side in some cases) is a no go. Near/next to concrete or any heat producing devises like air conditioners, roads/cars, airplanes, vents, etc, is also not viable. Those features cannot even be *in the vicinity* of the sensor.

 

A relatively shady, grassy location away from all infrastructure is really the only way to avoid thermal contamination. And when it comes to comparing modern temperatures to those of the distant past, it possibly cannot be within a city environment, even if the station is well sited.

[Jesse]

Even though he is being typically spazzy about it, I'm gonna have to side with Tim on this one, at least with regard to the big picture involving the complexity of our microclimates.

[Deweydog]

Gonna have to mow soon. Seems late!

[TT-SEA]

Even though he is being typically spazzy about it, I'm gonna have to side with Tim on this one, at least with regard to the big picture involving the complexity of our microclimates.

I thought I was trying to explain it as best I can. Pointless though because his goal is to troll and not understand our microclimates.

[GHweatherChris]

Only because of the massive urban development in your area and all the runways built around your house.

 

Today would have been in the 50s without all of that.

Yep, and they're putting in another runway here at Central Park International Airport!! Just a mile from my house down by the river. Just look for the van.

[Phil]

I relocated my temp/humidity sensor from a okayish location (partially shaded area 15 feet from the NE side of our house) to a much better location (shaded area in a spot 50ft lower in elevation away from all buildings) and the result was an ~ 2 degree drop in daytime temps and a whopping 4 degree drop in nighttime temps.

 

I think people underestimate how easy it is for both radiational and anthropogenic contamination to screw with temperature readings. During the day it’s often the former with a little bit of the latter, at night it’s the latter.

[Jesse]

Mark seems to think that tomorrow will be the warmest day at PDX, with temps in the low to mid 70s. Although with offshore flow dying off and more high to mid level clouds moving in I am picturing something in the 68-70 range again.

[Phil]

I thought I was trying to explain it as best I can. Pointless though because his goal is to troll and not understand our microclimates.

If I move out there after school is done, I’ll set up a high quality weather station, and I’ll do it properly. I bet you I’ll run cooler during the daytime than 90% of the stations you’re referencing.

 

Sigh. If you want something done right, then I guess you have to do it yourself.

[Jesse]

This stretch of warmth on the west side has been pretty crazy considering The Dalles has yet to even hit 60.

[TT-SEA]

I relocated my temp/humidity sensor from a okayish location (partially shaded area 15 feet from the NE side of our house) to a much better location (shaded area in a spot 50ft lower in elevation away from all buildings) and the result was an ~ 2 degree drop in daytime temps and a whopping 4 degree drop in nighttime temps.

 

I think people underestimate how easy it is for both radiational and anthropogenic contamination to screw with temperature readings. During the day it’s often the former with a little bit of the latter, at night it’s the latter.

It feels really cold here today. I bet its actually in the 40s and hundreds of misplaced sensors around the region are lying to us and saying its much warmer.

 

Also... I bet the early pioneers had sensor placement down to a science and were militant about it. Those old records were never inflated for bad thermometer placement.

[Omegaraptor]

We went from an unprecedented extended cold snap with temperatures failing to break 50 for nearly 40 days in a row to parts of Seattle breaking the all time March temperature record.

 

In less than three weeks.

 

Just let that sink in.

[Jesse]

We went from an unprecedented extended cold snap with temperatures failing to break 50 for nearly 40 days in a row to parts of Seattle breaking the all time March temperature record.

 

In less than three weeks.

 

Just let that sink in.

[TT-SEA]

We went from an unprecedented extended cold snap with temperatures failing to break 50 for nearly 40 days in a row to parts of Seattle breaking the all time March temperature record.

 

In less than three weeks.

 

Just let that sink in.

I mentioned numerous times during the cold spell that historically there is precedence for a complete flip to warm after extreme late season cold.

[Phil]

All depends on the strength of the offshore flow. It will be warmer to the west when the flow is really strong like today. Portland experiences the same thing but they get less downslope warming there overall.

 

Or North Bend can be the hot spot in the state with weak offshore flow and downslope warming.

 

And the discussion about downslope warming in the winter is usually related to night time lows. It can be 30 in Olympia and in the 50s here with an east wind. All about exposure to the east wind and mixing and we are very exposed to the east wind out here.

 

You just don't understand our microclimates... and its more fun to say I am completely making it up because I live at 7,000 feet.

Omg. You literally told me during the summer last year when SEA had a 10mph SE wind that it was 4 degrees warmer at your house because of downsloping.

 

So increase that by wind by 10mph and somehow SEA gains 8 degrees on you? That doesn’t make any physical sense whatsoever.

[Jesse]

I mentioned numerous times during the cold spell that historically there is precedence for a complete flip to warm after extreme late season cold.

For knowing nothing you sure are a genius! Make up your mind.

[Deweydog]

78 at Oly.

 

That stings.

[Jesse]

Omg. You literally told me during the summer last year when SEA had a 10mph SE wind that it was 4 degrees warmer at your house because of downsloping.

So increase that by wind by 10mph and somehow SEA gains 8 degrees on you? That doesn’t make any physical sense whatsoever.

I’m usually as game for going after Tim as the next guy, but this post illustrates a total ignorance of the nuances of individual weather patterns and our microclimates.

[Tenochtitlan]

Seatac's low of 59 last night seems to be the highest of all Seattle-area stations--the next-highest I found is 55 in downtown Seattle.

[TT-SEA]

Omg. You literally told me during the summer last year when SEA had a 10mph SE wind that it was 4 degrees warmer at your house because of downsloping.

 

So increase that by wind by 10mph and somehow SEA gains 8 degrees on you? That doesn’t make any physical sense whatsoever.

You are just trolling. And don't care to understand. And I would never say anything like that about a specific wind speed. There are so many factors involved.

 

Often it can be warmer out here in the summer because we have less marine influence than SEA. Other days it can be warmer at SEA. There are so many variables.

[Omegaraptor]

PDX HIT 70

 

PDX HIT 70

 

PDX HIT 70

[Jesse]

PDX HIT 70

 

PDX HIT 70

 

PDX HIT 70

yay

 

First of 2019.

 

1 down 200 to go!

[TT-SEA]

Seatac's low of 59 last night seems to be the highest of all Seattle-area stations--the next-highest I found is 55 in downtown Seattle.

I checked at dawn and it was in the upper 50s and even low 60s from Enumclaw through Maple Valley and up to SEA in the corridor of strongest east wind.

 

And 30 at OLM at the same time!

[James Jones]

78 at Oly.

 

That stings.

 

******* improperly placed degraded sensor UHI piece of utter f***cking dog !!!!!!!!!!

[Phil]

I’m usually as game for going after Tim as the next guy, but this post illustrates a total ignorance of the nuances of individual weather patterns and our microclimates.

Making statements like this without offering substantive supporting arguments isn’t exactly convincing. This is the recurring theme here..blanket claims without any counter arguments rooted in the physics and meteorology. The effects of adiabatic heating/drying on the lower boundary layer don’t just cease when the terrain flattens. If SEA and the rest of the downtown areas have a 10mph east wind, and North Bend/terrain areas also have a 10mph easterly wind, there should be little to no cessation in the adiabatic effects, provided the boundary layer depth is relatively uniform. Otherwise it would make no physical sense at all.

 

I’m always open to being convinced/re-educated, but blanket attacks on my character will just increase my skepticism.

[TT-SEA]

Making statements like this without offering substantive supporting arguments isn’t exactly convincing. This is the recurring theme here..blanket claims without any counter arguments rooted in the physics and meteorology. The effects of adiabatic heating/drying on the lower boundary layer don’t just cease when the terrain flattens. If SEA has a 10mph E wind and North Bend has a 10mph E wind, there should be little to no cessation in the adiabatic effects in a well mixed profile. That would make no physical sense at all.

 

I’m always open to being convinced/re-educated, but blanket attacks on my character will just increase my skepticism.

You get in these moods when you want to challenge just basic reality of our microclimates... I just should not engage.

 

Its pointless.

[Phil]

You get in this moods when you want to challenge just basic reality about our microclimates... I just should not engage.

 

Its pointless.

^^Assigning motives. Classic tactic when arguing from a position of weakness.

 

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But your reality is not necessarily *the* reality.

[Jesse]

Definitely looking more seasonable going forward.

 

[TT-SEA]

^^Assigning motives. Classic tactic when arguing from a position of weakness.

 

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But your reality is not necessarily *the* reality.

You gain a much better understanding of how our local weather works when you live here and follow it intimately every day.

 

Simple as that.

[Deweydog]

Probably best to shut this one down, Phil. This was a pretty exceptional setup. No shame in missing the mark from 3,000 miles away.

[Phil]

You are just trolling. And don't care to understand. And I would never say anything like that about a specific wind speed. There are so many factors involved.

 

Often it can be warmer out here in the summer because we have less marine influence than SEA. Other days it can be warmer at SEA. There are so many variables.

I didn’t say *you* mentioned the wind. I specifically remember the wind speed at SEA that day (I have the screenshot saved somewhere). If I can find the day, I can probably dig up the sounding and we can analyze the boundary layer itself.

[GHweatherChris]

Phil, you are wrong... let it go man.

[Jesse]

SEA has been stuck at 79 for like two hours now. Perfect storm for a 5pm nailbiter!!

[TT-SEA]

I didn’t say *you* mentioned the wind. I specifically remember the wind speed at SEA that day (I have the screenshot saved somewhere). If I can find the day, I can probably dig up the sounding and we can analyze the boundary layer itself.

Please do. There are many variables in play every day. I am sure I did not make up some blanket statement about temperatures.

 

There are many days in the summer when its warmer out here than SEA. And many days when its warmer at SEA. Its not always warmer or colder. It depends on the specific conditions and I would never say otherwise.

[MossMan]

Just got home...77 for a high, 41 for a low (so far) and currently 72. Perfection!!

[Deweydog]

Just got home...77 for a high, 41 for a low (so far) and currently 72. Perfection!!

Phuck you.

[Phil]

Phil, you are wrong... let it go man.

Again, I’m absolutely open to that possibility, but I want to see quantitative evidence that UHI had zero effect on the readings at SEA/surround areas (which seems almost impossible since there is a well-studied modest effect in all of the I-95 corridor cities, even during high winds, blizzards, and thunderstorm squalls).

 

You can’t just throw science into the trash in place of subjective systems of personal belief.

 

As for the adiabatic warming/drying, that’s a process I’m very familiar with at the molecular level, so unless there are terrain/moisture gradients I’m unaware of out there, or I’ve misinterpreted comments/observations (or am just remembering them incorrectly) I stand by what I said.

[Jesse]

Phuck you.

I was going to mention that he would probably be crying about the 41 being too chilly in the summer...but this works too.

[Jesse]

Ouch. So close yet so far for SEA.

 

https://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowest/getobext.php?wfo=pqr&sid=KSEA&num=25&raw=0&banner=off

[GHweatherChris]

Again, I’m absolutely open to that possibility, but I want to see quantitative evidence that UHI had zero effect on the readings at SEA/surround areas (which seems almost impossible since there is a well-studied modest effect in all of the I-95 corridor cities, even during high winds, blizzards, and thunderstorm squalls).

 

You can’t just throw science into the trash in place of subjective systems of personal belief.

 

As for the adiabatic warming/drying, that’s a process I’m very familiar with at the molecular level, so unless there are terrain/moisture gradients I’m unaware of out there, or I’ve misinterpreted comments/observations (or am just remembering them incorrectly) I stand by what I said.

What is your explanation for it getting to 81 here, 77 in Hoquiam, WA and above 80 at KUIL on the north coast today in March.