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Did You Know Seneca Oregon Has A Sub Arctic Climate?


snow_wizard

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Western Montana would be your best bet.  Exactly what you describe.  I think the western part of the state would be more enjoyable than the central and eastern parts.  Even though the areas east of the Rockies are colder overall the west often holds onto cold better in the winter when Chinooks come along.

 

This is true, but the east side of the Rockies sees much wilder swings in weather and more t-storms, two things he listed as priorities.

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Western Montana would be your best bet.  Exactly what you describe.  I think the western part of the state would be more enjoyable than the central and eastern parts.  Even though the areas east of the Rockies are colder overall the west often holds onto cold better in the winter when Chinooks come along.

 

 

This is true, but the east side of the Rockies sees much wilder swings in weather and more t-storms, two things he listed as priorities.

 

Thanks for the tips.

The Flathead Lake area looks like a great area. I like a variety of weather and I don't need 70° temperature swings like Denver gets, but I don't want a San Diego climate either. Around here there can be drops 40° within a day. Just wish summers weren't so darn humid here and there was mountains!

Kind of always liked the looks of northern Idaho. I know it's milder there since it is over the continental divide. Probably would loose that frequency of thunderstorms in that area. I see the snowfall is pretty good if you have a little elevation.

Mercer Island, 350 ft

2021-2022: 11.6", 02/21

2020-2021: 15.6"

2019-2020: ~10"

2018-2019 winter snowfall total: 29.5"

2017-2018: 9.0", 2016-2017: 14.0"

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This is true, but the east side of the Rockies sees much wilder swings in weather and more t-storms, two things he listed as priorities.

 

He wants to live where the mountains are close though.  I would say Western Montana still has some pretty decent temperature swings and a pretty good amount of thunderstorm activity in the summer.

Death To Warm Anomalies!

 

Winter 2023-24 stats

 

Total Snowfall = 1.0"

Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1

Total Hail = 0.0

Total Ice = 0.2

Coldest Low = 13

Lows 32 or below = 45

Highs 32 or below = 3

Lows 20 or below = 3

Highs 40 or below = 9

 

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I'd definitely choose somewhere along the Front Range under those criteria. The only thing missing in that climate for me personally are those tropical 85/75 days with thunderstorms.

 

I think the lack of persistent snow cover ina place like Denver would be a disappointment for me.  If I move I want snow to be around pretty consistently in the winter.

Death To Warm Anomalies!

 

Winter 2023-24 stats

 

Total Snowfall = 1.0"

Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1

Total Hail = 0.0

Total Ice = 0.2

Coldest Low = 13

Lows 32 or below = 45

Highs 32 or below = 3

Lows 20 or below = 3

Highs 40 or below = 9

 

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As mentioned western Montana would be a prime candidate...the Flathead and Missoula valleys (the area from about Kalispell to Hamilton east to Butte) has a great amount of variety. In Missoula and Kalispell a range from -20 to 95/100 is probable in most years...with -25 to -30 every decade or so (every winter in Butte). Thunderstorms are common but decrease in frequency markedly north of I-90/MT-200 from 40-50 days at Butte to 30-40 at Hamilton and 15-25 Missoula to Kalispell. Bozeman, MT seems like it would have a near-perfect combination of both summer and winter conditions...although slightly milder than the western MT valleys under wintertime ridges and during Chinooks. Snowfall is higher at Missoula, Bozeman and Kalispell versus Butte.

Southern Idaho another good candidate with temps ranging from -10/-20 to 100/105 most years in the Snake River Valley (hotter to west, cooler to east). Boise sees -5/-10 and 105/108 most years. Snowfall is generally decent...30-60" from Pocatello to Rexburg. 20-30 thunderstorm days a year in valley with 40-50 days near/over the mountains.

Northern Utah a decent contender as well with temps generally -10 to 105 most years along the Wasatch Front...cooler in the picturesque Cache Valley however. Good amount of snow with 40-70" along the Wasatch Front cities. Thunderstorms are common with 30-40 days a year in the lower elevations and 40-50 days a year in the Wasatch/50-60 days a year Uintas. More SW monsoon influence versus ID/MT locations with generally more days with convection present at least over the higher terrain.

Front Range of Colorado is a bit more extreme from day to day as stronger cold fronts/arctic fronts tend to occur in the lee of the Rockies. The absolute annual range of temperatures however isn't that much different with -15/-20 to 100/105 at most I-25 corridor cities from Colorado Springs to Cheyenne in a given year. Denver proper is a bit warmer than DIA due to closer proximity to the Front Range and accompanying Chinook influence (even moreso in Boulder). Denver sees decent snow but unlike the other areas mentioned above it is more variable in cover with extended periods without snow most winters. Feast or famine is more the name of the game in Denver versus SLC, Idaho or Montana with greater variability in snowfall between seasons. More thunderstorms in CO however with the only appreciable severe season out of the regions mentioned.

One difference however between arctic airmasses east of the Continental Divide is the higher chance of sub-zero high temps at Denver versus Salt Lake/Boise for instance. Typically a strong arctic airmass produces highs of 0 to 10 above in S ID and teens at SLC, same event can produce highs of zero to -5 at Denver. SLC has never had a high below 3 above. SE Idaho can see extreme cold highs however, -13 high at Idaho Falls during the Jan 1979 arctic blast and -19 at Rexburg in the Jan 1937 event. Boise had a high of -10 in Dec 1990. Sub-zero highs are more common in western Montana with Butte capable of highs as low as -20 and Missoula/Kalispell -10. Often these extreme cold days occur in the wake of the initial arctic blast as strong inversions set up in the valleys. Higher elevations may be 30-40 degrees warmer.

I've always thought of southern Alberta and north-central Montana as being analogous to the Denver area, minus about 20 degrees in winter and 10 degrees in summer. Chinooks are more frequent in Alberta/MT in spring and autumn and more common in Colorado during the winter as the jet shifts. Thunderstorms are definitely less common in Alberta/N-central MT though as they are farther from a source region of subtropical moisture and high theta-e (although Calgary sees some amazing hailstorms).

The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die.

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Thanks for the tips.

The Flathead Lake area looks like a great area. I like a variety of weather and I don't need 70° temperature swings like Denver gets, but I don't want a San Diego climate either. Around here there can be drops 40° within a day. Just wish summers weren't so darn humid here and there was mountains!

Kind of always liked the looks of northern Idaho. I know it's milder there since it is over the continental divide. Probably would loose that frequency of thunderstorms in that area. I see the snowfall is pretty good if you have a little elevation.

 

Pretty area...the climate is more like the PNW versus areas east of the divide. A colder version of the eastern Cascades slopes. Bonners Ferry/Sandpoint manage a range of 0/-10 to 100 or so most years, -20 occasionally during a severe arctic event. Good snowfall however...about double what Spokane receives. 15-20 thunderstorm days a year...highest as you go SE toward Bitterroots.

The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die.

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I think the lack of persistent snow cover ina place like Denver would be a disappointment for me.  If I move I want snow to be around pretty consistently in the winter.

 

I would say in the 9 years I've lived here, we've had snow on the ground about 50% of the time between Dec-Mar. In 2006-07, it was on the ground for 2 months straight.

 

What I like about the winters here is that we see big snowstorms more consistently than almost any other major metro area. I've seen 15 storms of 10"+ in 9 years. 5 with 18"+.

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Front Range of Colorado is a bit more extreme from day to day as stronger cold fronts/arctic fronts tend to occur in the lee of the Rockies. The absolute annual range of temperatures however isn't that much different with -15/-20 to 100/105 at most I-25 corridor cities from Colorado Springs to Cheyenne in a given year. Denver proper is a bit warmer than DIA due to closer proximity to the Front Range and accompanying Chinook influence (even moreso in Boulder). Denver sees decent snow but unlike the other areas mentioned above it is more variable in cover with extended periods without snow most winters. Feast or famine is more the name of the game in Denver versus SLC, Idaho or Montana with greater variability in snowfall between seasons. More thunderstorms in CO however with the only appreciable severe season out of the regions mentioned.

 

I'm not sure I would agree with that. DEN's totals since about 2010 are pretty misleading (it was around that time they started measuring snowfall at the airport), since they tend to get quite a bit less than most of the metro area, being so far east and north. Just compare to Boulder and you'll see how wild the differences are.

 

I've had 50"+ 8 out of 9 years here, and between 60-80" six of those years. That's pretty darn consistent.

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What I like about the winters here is that we see big snowstorms more consistently than almost any other major metro area. I've seen 15 storms of 10"+ in 9 years. 5 with 18"+.

I don't think that's too uncommon. The majority of the major metros in the New England region (including ORH, BOS, etc) have observed both higher seasonal totals, and more frequent/larger single-storm totals than DEN. Once you get above 40N or so, moisture availability is a statistically larger influence on the data-curve than temperature.

 

Several nor'easters over the last 6 years have dumped 30-40"+ around the I95 corridor over 24-36hrs. I think BOS observed 91.2" of snow in under 4 weeks last year.

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I don't think that's too uncommon. The majority of the major metros in the New England region (including ORH, BOS, etc) have observed both higher seasonal totals, and more frequent/larger single-storm totals than DEN. Once you get above 40N or so, moisture availability is a statistically larger influence on the data-curve than temperature.

 

Several nor'easters over the last 6 years have dumped 30-40"+ around the I95 corridor over 24-36hrs. I think BOS observed 91.2" of snow in under 4 weeks last year.

 

I said more big storms (10"+) than almost any other major metro area. I'm talking cities close to Denver's size or larger. Boston would probably be the only one to challenge or surpass the Denver metro area the past 10 years. Pretty sure NYC, Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis, or Philadelphia have not seen more than 15 10"+ storms the past 9 winters.

 

And I'm only counting ones where I personally saw 10"+...there have been several that dumped a foot or more in part of Denver metro, but I saw less than 10" (such as the one this November that dropped over 18" in the south metro).

 

Again, keep in mind that you can't judge things based of DEN's totals. Boulder, which get more than me but reflects the western half of the Denver metro area better than DEN, has seen 100"+ seasonal totals 4 winters out of the last 10. Two of those topped 125". http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?co0848

 

Could be another coming late next week...

 

 

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I said more big storms (10"+) than almost any other major metro area. I'm talking cities close to Denver's size or larger. Boston would probably be the only one to challenge or surpass the Denver metro area the past 10 years. Pretty sure NYC, Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis, or Philadelphia have not seen more than 15 10"+ storms the past 9 winters.

 

And I'm only counting ones where I personally saw 10"+...there have been several that dumped a foot or more in part of Denver metro, but I saw less than 10" (such as the one this November that dropped over 18" in the south metro).

 

Again, keep in mind that you can't judge things based of DEN's totals. Boulder, which get more than me but reflects the western half of the Denver metro area better than DEN, has seen 100"+ seasonal totals 4 winters out of the last 10. Two of those topped 125". http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?co0848

 

Could be another coming late next week...

 

get_orig_img.png

Depending on the parameters you're using to define a "major metro", I can think of at least seven that outperform both Denver and Boulder in terms of snowfall.

 

What parameters are you actually using to determine the "size" of a city? Typically, a major city or metro is defined by the presence of an international airport within 30 miles of the metro area. If you select to use the "size" (in area) of a metro, population, or whatever other applicable metrics, the statistical result will change.

 

Also, are you using data from Boulder, or downtown Denver? I'd say Boulder is about as analogous to Denver as Albany NY is to NYC.

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Depending on the parameters you're using to define a "major metro", I can think of at least seven that outperform both Denver and Boulder in terms of snowfall.

 

What parameters are you actually using to determine the "size" of a city? Typically, a major city or metro is defined by the presence of an international airport within 30 miles of the metro area. If you select to use the "size" (in area) of a metro, population, or whatever other applicable metrics, the statistical result will change.

 

Also, are you using data from Boulder, or downtown Denver? I'd say Boulder is about as analogous to Denver as Albany NY is to NYC.

 

Denver and Boulder are part of the same metro area. Boulder is about a 30 min drive from Denver. Albany is like 2.5 hours from NYC.

 

Like I said, Boulder better reflects the west metro area than DEN. Not very many people live out near the airport...a ton of people live in the corridor from Boulder to Denver.

 

I would say where I live (about 15 min from downtown Denver) I get about the average amount of snow for the Denver metro area. The past 9 winters, I've averaged 73". The least I've gotten is 38", the most 110".

 

But again, my statement wasn't about seasonal snowfall, it was about the number of big snowstorms. Defined as 10"+. As far as major metro areas go (Denver metro has over 2.8 million people), you would be hard-pressed to find another place besides Boston that sees as many big snowstorms as we do.

 

Now, it's true that we haven't seen as many HUGE, 2'+ storms as the Northeast has in recent years. There have only been two of those since I've lived here, though a couple others approached 2'.

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Denver and Boulder are part of the same metro area. Boulder is about a 30 min drive from Denver. Albany is like 2.5 hours from NYC.

 

Like I said, Boulder better reflects the west metro area than DEN. Not very many people live out near the airport...a ton of people live in the corridor from Boulder to Denver.

 

I would say where I live (about 15 min from downtown Denver) I get about the average amount of snow for the Denver metro area. The past 9 winters, I've averaged 73". The least I've gotten is 38", the most 110".

 

But again, my statement wasn't about seasonal snowfall, it was about the number of big snowstorms. Defined as 10"+. As far as major metro areas go (Denver metro has over 2.8 million people), you would be hard-pressed to find another place besides Boston that sees as many big snowstorms as we do.

 

Now, it's true that we haven't seen as many HUGE, 2'+ storms as the Northeast has in recent years. There have only been two of those since I've lived here, though a couple others approached 2'.

So you're judging by a population threshold? I'm asking so I can make sure my data fits into what you're describing.

 

As far as the frequency of 10"+/18"+ snowfalls go, that varies significantly based on the parameters you choose. If you use the typical definition (international airport service to metro area), there are many metros that rank higher in both categories. If you use a population threshold, there are still at least three that rank higher, though your initial statement would still hold true, generally speaking.

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He wants to live where the mountains are close though.  I would say Western Montana still has some pretty decent temperature swings and a pretty good amount of thunderstorm activity in the summer.

 

 

I think the lack of persistent snow cover ina place like Denver would be a disappointment for me.  If I move I want snow to be around pretty consistently in the winter.

 

Always liked Western Montana from the first time I visited. Not sure where a job might land me. (Can't find what I want around here, so I've got several areas in mind - and most are in the West).

I don't have to land in the ideal spot, but somewhere the has some of each of the things I mentioned.

 

That would probably get to me also - seeing brown grass for long stretches in the winter along the Front Range. Rather be just west with a little elevation.

Mercer Island, 350 ft

2021-2022: 11.6", 02/21

2020-2021: 15.6"

2019-2020: ~10"

2018-2019 winter snowfall total: 29.5"

2017-2018: 9.0", 2016-2017: 14.0"

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As mentioned western Montana would be a prime candidate...the Flathead and Missoula valleys (the area from about Kalispell to Hamilton east to Butte) has a great amount of variety. In Missoula and Kalispell a range from -20 to 95/100 is probable in most years...with -25 to -30 every decade or so (every winter in Butte). Thunderstorms are common but decrease in frequency markedly north of I-90/MT-200 from 40-50 days at Butte to 30-40 at Hamilton and 15-25 Missoula to Kalispell. Bozeman, MT seems like it would have a near-perfect combination of both summer and winter conditions...although slightly milder than the western MT valleys under wintertime ridges and during Chinooks. Snowfall is higher at Missoula, Bozeman and Kalispell versus Butte.

 

Southern Idaho another good candidate with temps ranging from -10/-20 to 100/105 most years in the Snake River Valley (hotter to west, cooler to east). Boise sees -5/-10 and 105/108 most years. Snowfall is generally decent...30-60" from Pocatello to Rexburg. 20-30 thunderstorm days a year in valley with 40-50 days near/over the mountains.

 

Northern Utah a decent contender as well with temps generally -10 to 105 most years along the Wasatch Front...cooler in the picturesque Cache Valley however. Good amount of snow with 40-70" along the Wasatch Front cities. Thunderstorms are common with 30-40 days a year in the lower elevations and 40-50 days a year in the Wasatch/50-60 days a year Uintas. More SW monsoon influence versus ID/MT locations with generally more days with convection present at least over the higher terrain.

 

Front Range of Colorado is a bit more extreme from day to day as stronger cold fronts/arctic fronts tend to occur in the lee of the Rockies. The absolute annual range of temperatures however isn't that much different with -15/-20 to 100/105 at most I-25 corridor cities from Colorado Springs to Cheyenne in a given year. Denver proper is a bit warmer than DIA due to closer proximity to the Front Range and accompanying Chinook influence (even moreso in Boulder). Denver sees decent snow but unlike the other areas mentioned above it is more variable in cover with extended periods without snow most winters. Feast or famine is more the name of the game in Denver versus SLC, Idaho or Montana with greater variability in snowfall between seasons. More thunderstorms in CO however with the only appreciable severe season out of the regions mentioned.

 

One difference however between arctic airmasses east of the Continental Divide is the higher chance of sub-zero high temps at Denver versus Salt Lake/Boise for instance. Typically a strong arctic airmass produces highs of 0 to 10 above in S ID and teens at SLC, same event can produce highs of zero to -5 at Denver. SLC has never had a high below 3 above. SE Idaho can see extreme cold highs however, -13 high at Idaho Falls during the Jan 1979 arctic blast and -19 at Rexburg in the Jan 1937 event. Boise had a high of -10 in Dec 1990. Sub-zero highs are more common in western Montana with Butte capable of highs as low as -20 and Missoula/Kalispell -10. Often these extreme cold days occur in the wake of the initial arctic blast as strong inversions set up in the valleys. Higher elevations may be 30-40 degrees warmer.

 

I've always thought of southern Alberta and north-central Montana as being analogous to the Denver area, minus about 20 degrees in winter and 10 degrees in summer. Chinooks are more frequent in Alberta/MT in spring and autumn and more common in Colorado during the winter as the jet shifts. Thunderstorms are definitely less common in Alberta/N-central MT though as they are farther from a source region of subtropical moisture and high theta-e (although Calgary sees some amazing hailstorms).

 

 

Pretty area...the climate is more like the PNW versus areas east of the divide. A colder version of the eastern Cascades slopes. Bonners Ferry/Sandpoint manage a range of 0/-10 to 100 or so most years, -20 occasionally during a severe arctic event. Good snowfall however...about double what Spokane receives. 15-20 thunderstorm days a year...highest as you go SE toward Bitterroots.

 

Well thanks putting out that big post. :)

As far as temperatures go, I favor the colder side of the scale vs. hotter side of the scale. Would not miss the hot, humid days here in the summer. Didn't know that the cities along the Wasatch Range did that well. Some of that from the added lake effect snowfall from Salt Lake?

I know someone that used to live near Coeur d'Alene and they said there is a pretty good variety of weather there.

 

Found this t-storm frequency map on Cliff Mass' blog. I can see a speck of green in the Bitteroot's like you mention.Nice

little bulls eye near Colorado Springs.

 

It shows 40-50 days of storms where I am now, but a lot of years it seems lower than that due to the influence of the marine air masses from the lake.

 

Mercer Island, 350 ft

2021-2022: 11.6", 02/21

2020-2021: 15.6"

2019-2020: ~10"

2018-2019 winter snowfall total: 29.5"

2017-2018: 9.0", 2016-2017: 14.0"

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Well thanks putting out that big post. :)

As far as temperatures go, I favor the colder side of the scale vs. hotter side of the scale. Would not miss the hot, humid days here in the summer. Didn't know that the cities along the Wasatch Range did that well. Some of that from the added lake effect snowfall from Salt Lake?

I know someone that used to live near Coeur d'Alene and they said there is a pretty good variety of weather there.

 

Found this t-storm frequency map on Cliff Mass' blog. I can see a speck of green in the Bitteroot's like you mention.Nice

little bulls eye near Colorado Springs.

 

It shows 40-50 days of storms where I am now, but a lot of years it seems lower than that due to the influence of the marine air masses from the lake.

Yes the Wasatch Front greatly benefits from lake-effect. SLC (the airport) averages about 60" a winter and the benches at around 4500' can see 80+". Depending on mid-level (700 mb) flow the greatest snow can range from Davis County (with westerly flow) to Tooele (with northerly flow). Utah Lake further south has a similar but less pronounced occurrence of lake effect as it is smaller in surface area.

 

That t-storm map looks a bit conservative although the relative spatial frequencies look ok. For instance outside of Florida the location in the US with the most thunderstorms is Cimarron, NM with nearly 100 days a year. Let's look at actual values from the 1971-2000 period, from WRCC:

 

Average Annual Thunderstorm Days

 

ID: Boise 15, Burley 20, CDA 13, Idaho Falls 21, Lewiston 15, Pocatello 24

MT: Bozeman 34, Butte 40, Great Falls 28, Helena 32, Kalispell 22, Missoula 24

UT: Salt Lake 37, Ogden 34

CO: Denver 42, Colorado Springs 56

 

These values are from the actual obs (ASOS stations) at the respective airports.

The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die.

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Well thanks putting out that big post. :)

As far as temperatures go, I favor the colder side of the scale vs. hotter side of the scale. Would not miss the hot, humid days here in the summer. Didn't know that the cities along the Wasatch Range did that well. Some of that from the added lake effect snowfall from Salt Lake?

I know someone that used to live near Coeur d'Alene and they said there is a pretty good variety of weather there.

 

Found this t-storm frequency map on Cliff Mass' blog. I can see a speck of green in the Bitteroot's like you mention.Nice

little bulls eye near Colorado Springs.

 

It shows 40-50 days of storms where I am now, but a lot of years it seems lower than that due to the influence of the marine air masses from the lake.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uv7Lz7_G_gE/UeIr7zE2aJI/AAAAAAAAR2M/5pXvynV_7bk/s1600/Lightning2.gif

The downside in the case of CO/WY/MT is the lack of severe weather relative to most of the Central and Eastern U.S. This is particularly true in terms of wind/downburst activity, which is most prolific downwind of the Appalachian mountains. That's one aspect I love about this climate, and would probably miss if I left. I typically observe 60+mph convective winds at least 3 days per summer, and have recorded winds over 80mph 4 times since I started keeping track in 2010 (7/25/10, microburst, 94mph, 6/29/12, derecho, 87mph, 9/8/12, microburst, 81mph, 6/25/15, microburst, 82mph).

 

These graphics depict the aggregated variations in severe weather quite well.

 

Severe Weather Days

image.png

 

Severe (Wind) Days

image.png

 

Severe (Hail) Days

image.png

 

Tornado Days

image.png

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The downside in the case of CO/WY/MT is the lack of severe weather relative to most of the Central and Eastern U.S. This is particularly true in terms of wind/downburst activity, which is most prolific downwind of the Appalachian mountains. That's one aspect I love about this climate, and would probably miss if I left. I typically observe 60+mph convective winds at least 3 days per summer, and have recorded winds over 80mph 4 times since I started keeping track in 2010 (7/25/10, microburst, 94mph, 6/29/12, derecho, 87mph, 9/8/12, microburst, 81mph, 6/25/15, microburst, 82mph).

 

These graphics depict the aggregated variations in severe weather quite well.

 

Severe Weather Days

attachicon.gifimage.png

 

Severe (Wind) Days

attachicon.gifimage.png

 

Severe (Hail) Days

attachicon.gifimage.png

 

Tornado Days

attachicon.gifimage.png

 

I wouldn't have thought the Charlotte, NC area would be the area with the most severe weather in the country (considering wind, hail and tornado occurrence as equal). Perhaps because it can benefit from high boundary layer DPs/instability from both a S-SW flow and a SE-E flow regime. I probably would have expected some location along I-35. Nice graphics.

 

However since the maps are based on reports areas with greater population density and more spotters would tend to have more days with reports within 25 miles of a point.

 

Lightning is easier to quantify as frequency values are independent of human reporting, however storms can and often do produce prolific lightning without producing any severe weather.

The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die.

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I wouldn't have thought the Charlotte, NC area would be the area with the most severe weather in the country (considering wind, hail and tornado occurrence as equal). Perhaps because it can benefit from high boundary layer DPs/instability from both a S-SW flow and a SE-E flow regime. I probably would have expected some location along I-35. Nice graphics.

 

However since the maps are based on reports areas with greater population density and more spotters would tend to have more days with reports within 25 miles of a point.

 

Lightning is easier to quantify as frequency values are independent of human reporting, however storms can and often do produce prolific lightning without producing any severe weather.

Well, remember this data is adjusted for population distribution too when factoring in reports (otherwise you'd get disproportionately high numbers in and around major cities). The mountains of NC/SC aren't exactly highly populated and in fact are a chaser's worst nightmare.

 

The only reason the eastern seaboard does so well in terms of severe wind/microburst activity is due to the mesoscale lee troughing downwind of the Appalachian mountains under NW/W/SW flow.

 

We actually suck comparatively when it comes to hail and even lightning during JJA (we often get low-topped linear convection during the spring and autumn). I've observed severe-caliber hail only once in my life.

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@ Phil's map post. I never would have guessed that the western North Carolina's was the place for most frequent severe weather with wind. Kind of makes sense though being downwind of the somewhat tall Smoky Mountains. 

Always knew the high plains were a hot spot for hail.

That area in southern Arizona that gets 5+ days of severe weather wind events is interesting.

Mercer Island, 350 ft

2021-2022: 11.6", 02/21

2020-2021: 15.6"

2019-2020: ~10"

2018-2019 winter snowfall total: 29.5"

2017-2018: 9.0", 2016-2017: 14.0"

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  • 5 months later...

Senaca Oregon could get frost all year long.

 

Stanley, ID is like that as well.

Mercer Island, 350 ft

2021-2022: 11.6", 02/21

2020-2021: 15.6"

2019-2020: ~10"

2018-2019 winter snowfall total: 29.5"

2017-2018: 9.0", 2016-2017: 14.0"

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  • 2 weeks later...

Stanley, ID is like that as well.

 

Absolutely!  Stanley has some amazingly cold temperatures for the Western US.  I looked at the stats for them a few months ago and I recall they are pretty jaw dropping on the minimum temperature side of things.

Death To Warm Anomalies!

 

Winter 2023-24 stats

 

Total Snowfall = 1.0"

Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1

Total Hail = 0.0

Total Ice = 0.2

Coldest Low = 13

Lows 32 or below = 45

Highs 32 or below = 3

Lows 20 or below = 3

Highs 40 or below = 9

 

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They've hit 15 in July.

 

I just looked again and the numbers are amazing.

 

Average annual min = 17.6

Extreme min = -54

5 months have recorded lows of -30 or below

Mins 32 or below = 290 per year

Death To Warm Anomalies!

 

Winter 2023-24 stats

 

Total Snowfall = 1.0"

Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1

Total Hail = 0.0

Total Ice = 0.2

Coldest Low = 13

Lows 32 or below = 45

Highs 32 or below = 3

Lows 20 or below = 3

Highs 40 or below = 9

 

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They've hit 15 in July.

 

Safe to say they don't have a growing season really!

Summer low temps average barely above freezing.

 

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?idstan

Mercer Island, 350 ft

2021-2022: 11.6", 02/21

2020-2021: 15.6"

2019-2020: ~10"

2018-2019 winter snowfall total: 29.5"

2017-2018: 9.0", 2016-2017: 14.0"

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  • 2 months later...

Seneca is a fascinating location. Very rare dry-summer subarctic climate. The only places in the world that have this climate are some isolated high valleys here in the PNW and some of the highland locations around the Mediterranean Sea, particularly in Turkey. And that's it. Classic subarctic climates all have a summer precip maximum, which is what you would find in the boreal regions. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Seneca is a fascinating location. Very rare dry-summer subarctic climate. The only places in the world that have this climate are some isolated high valleys here in the PNW and some of the highland locations around the Mediterranean Sea, particularly in Turkey. 

 

 

It seems that places in Idaho, California, Utah, and Nevada might meet the criteria as well?

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982540.JPG

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982539.JPG

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982536.JPG

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It seems that places in Idaho, California, Utah, and Nevada might meet the criteria as well?

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982540.JPG

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982539.JPG

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982536.JPG

 

Absolutely. These locations are in the same boat as Seneca. High altitude valleys in a Mediterranean precipitation regime. I guess I could have changed the wording to "high altitude locations in the PNW and California as well as around the Mediterranean Sea." I don't think any places in Utah would qualify...don't they see enough rainfall from summer monsoon activity to not be classified as a "dry summer" environment? 

 

I purposely left off the areas of Alaska/NW Canada that are technically Dsc/dry summer Subarctic since to me those are classic Subarctic climate zones in boreal regions. I was thinking more of areas located in the temperate latitudes. I guess I could have been more clear about that! 

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 I don't think any places in Utah would qualify...don't they see enough rainfall from summer monsoon activity to not be classified as a "dry summer" environment? 

 

 

You are probably right.   Far northern Utah near the Idaho border definitely has a very dry summer, but at the official weather stations at least, it isn't quite cold enough (though it gets close).

 

Hardware Ranch, for example, barely misses the mark (September is a little to warm), but it seems very close.   If September was a few degress colder, it would meet the criteria.  It isn't quite as dry in summer as those other locations though.

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982537.JPG

 

I think the Soldier Summit/Scofield/Clear Creek region of the state (central Utah) might be somewhat close, but probably not?    It is fairly dry in June and July, but maybe August is too wet?    I assume that there is probably not enough difference between summer and winter year to count.

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982624.JPG

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Peter Sinks is probably one of the very few spots in UT that could be termed subarctic dry summer...although in that area the precip peak is in May rather than during the winter. I don't think anywhere in UT has a purely Mediterranean precip curve...although southern UT is quite dry in June.

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The Pacific Northwest: Where storms go to die.

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Peter Sinks is probably one of the very few spots in UT that could be termed subarctic dry summer...although in that area the precip peak is in May rather than during the winter. I don't think anywhere in UT has a purely Mediterranean precip curve...although southern UT is quite dry in June.

 

 

Yes, Utah should probably be excluded.  

 

Now that you mention Peter Sinks, maybe the area around Beaver Mountain would marginally qualify?   The east side of the Bear River Mountains stays dry in winter, but the west side is very wet in winter.  Both sides stay dry in summer.   The area surrounding the Cache Valley does stay quite dry in summer, even in the mountains.   Here is the climate data for Beaver Mountain:  

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982682.PNG

 

I think that area would perhaps have one of the greatest difference between summer and winter precipitation in the state.   Beaver Mountain doesn't see nearly the diurnal changes as those other places though. 

 

I agree that that area would probably be the only area that might quality though.

 

The ski resorts around SLC do have a much wetter winter than summer, and probably have the biggest contrast between the two in the state, but they probably aren't dry enough in summer to count.

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982683.PNG

 

http://images.summitpost.org/original/982684.PNG

 

Places like Bowdie and Stanley are much better representations than anything in Utah.

 

June is dry in southern Utah, but July and August are some of the wettest months in many areas.

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Yes, Utah should probably be excluded.  

 

Yeah, from what I see the subalpine zones in UT that qualify for a subarctic climate don't have a Mediterranean precip curve, even though summers can be quite dry. I like all the locations you're pulling up though. If for no other reason than I like looking at weather data for random places! 

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I seriously wish Liberty WA had an official weather station and a long weather record history.  They have a perfect situation for abnormally cold low temps in the winter with long lasting deep snow cover, 2700 feet elevation, lots of clear nights, along with being surrounded by mountains and sitting in a bowl that is about 90% closed off from drainage out of it.  Years ago the owner of a store in Liberty told me his temp had dropped to 24 in the middle of August.  That really amazed me at the time, and I certainly wish I had picked his brain about the temps they have during the winter.

Death To Warm Anomalies!

 

Winter 2023-24 stats

 

Total Snowfall = 1.0"

Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1

Total Hail = 0.0

Total Ice = 0.2

Coldest Low = 13

Lows 32 or below = 45

Highs 32 or below = 3

Lows 20 or below = 3

Highs 40 or below = 9

 

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