snow_wizard Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 I'm beyond mystified why a number of mets have written off the La Nina possibility this winter. The last week has featured a full blown Nina atmosphere with Nino 3.4 currently at weak Nina levels. A huge trade wind burst has been ongoing for the past week or so which will only help our chances. Here is a rundown of the ENSO vital statistics. Nino 3.4 - Below -0.5 OLR (5N to 5S / 160W to 160E) - moderate positive anoms (ninaish) 30 day SOI = +11 (ninaish) SOI* (September to date) = positive (ninaish) NOI (September to date) = positive (ninaish) Current MJO = octant 4 (ninaish) 200mb zonal winds = positive (ninaish) Subsurface ocean temps under the ENSO regions also remain cold. ENSO SST's will only drop with these number. Feel free to post any ENSO related graphics you may have. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-SEA Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Here is the last week... that huge trade wind burst did nothing much at all. In fact it looks like it warmed a little overall. http://coralreefwatch.noaa.gov/satellite/bleaching5km/images_current/cur_b05kmnn_ssttrend_007d_large.gif Quote **REPORTED CONDITIONS AND ANOMALIES ARE NOT MEANT TO IMPLY ANYTHING ON A REGIONAL LEVEL UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawniganLake Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Odds have increased slightly the past couple weeks. http://iri.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/figure1.gif http://iri.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/figure3.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawniganLake Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Published: September 15, 2016A monthly summary of the status of El Niño, La Niña, and the Southern Oscillation, or ENSO, based on the NINO3.4 index (120-170W, 5S-5N)Use the navigation menu on the right to navigate to the different forecast sectionsDuring mid-September 2016 the tropical Pacific SST anomaly was close to -0.5C, the weak La Niña threshold. However, not all of the atmospheric variables support weak La Niña conditions. Although the upper level winds in the tropical Pacific are somewhat suggestive of La Niña, the lower level winds remain near average. The Southern Oscillation index and the pattern of cloudiness and rainfall in the equatorial Pacific are somewhat suggestive of weak La Niña conditions, but could also be interpreted as being in the cool-neutral range. The collection of ENSO prediction models indicates SSTs hovering at levels near borderline La Niña during fall, then weakening to cool-neutral in late fall and into winter. http://iri.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/figure4.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 I'm hoping somebody will post the graphs that show daily SST anomalies for the ENSO regions. I have been able to find those. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawniganLake Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 I'm hoping somebody will post the graphs that show daily SST anomalies for the ENSO regions. I have been able to find those.http://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/ocean/ http://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/ocean/nino34.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Published: September 15, 2016A monthly summary of the status of El Niño, La Niña, and the Southern Oscillation, or ENSO, based on the NINO3.4 index (120-170W, 5S-5N)Use the navigation menu on the right to navigate to the different forecast sectionsDuring mid-September 2016 the tropical Pacific SST anomaly was close to -0.5C, the weak La Niña threshold. However, not all of the atmospheric variables support weak La Niña conditions. Although the upper level winds in the tropical Pacific are somewhat suggestive of La Niña, the lower level winds remain near average. The Southern Oscillation index and the pattern of cloudiness and rainfall in the equatorial Pacific are somewhat suggestive of weak La Niña conditions, but could also be interpreted as being in the cool-neutral range. The collection of ENSO prediction models indicates SSTs hovering at levels near borderline La Niña during fall, then weakening to cool-neutral in late fall and into winter. I actually don't totally buy the bolded statement. The 200mb, 850mb, and surface (SOI) are all quite Ninaish. That doesn't really translate to no anomalous trade winds at the surface. The warming being shown on the graph is not climatologically favored. Usually ENSO anomalies reach their max during winter. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Here is the last week... that huge trade wind burst did nothing much at all. In fact it looks like it warmed a little overall. Give it a few more days. The subsurface is still cold and the trades favor upwelling of the cold water. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-SEA Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Give it a few more days. The subsurface is still cold and the trades favor upwelling of the cold water. All sort of meaningless for us. Cold neutral or weak Nina is all about the same and offers good prospects for us. Not worth worrying about at this point... just have to see how it plays out. Quote **REPORTED CONDITIONS AND ANOMALIES ARE NOT MEANT TO IMPLY ANYTHING ON A REGIONAL LEVEL UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawniganLake Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 All sort of meaningless for us. Cold neutral or weak Nina is all about the same and offers good prospects for us. Not worth worrying about at this point... just have to see how it plays out.Yea. Probably not a big difference if ONI comes in at 0.3 or 0.6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Yea. Probably not a big difference if ONI comes in at 0.3 or 0.6 Probably true. Oddly the CPC has us EC for the winter now instead of cold though. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-SEA Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Probably true. Oddly the CPC has us EC for the winter now instead of cold though. Who cares? Those are just formulas. You can't really predict a neutral type winter. But it probably offers us the best chance at snow and cold at least at some point during the winter. Quote **REPORTED CONDITIONS AND ANOMALIES ARE NOT MEANT TO IMPLY ANYTHING ON A REGIONAL LEVEL UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 Who cares?Why does it matter so much to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Looks like a Nina to me. The reanalysis really gives a good picture of what's actually going on. It's also worth noting the 2 month running average is below -0.5 for Nino 3.4. It's likely this will verify as a Nina or at least very close to it. Sometimes I think the CPC requirement of five consecutive tri monthly averages is too strict. Under that criteria 2008-09 didn't qualify as a Nina even though it had one monthly average at -1.0. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHweatherChris Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Looks like a Nina to me. The reanalysis really gives a good picture of what's actually going on. It's also worth noting the 2 month running average is below -0.5 for Nino 3.4. It's likely this will verify as a Nina or at least very close to it. Sometimes I think the CPC requirement of five consecutive tri monthly averages is too strict. Under that criteria 2008-09 didn't qualify as a Nina even though it had one monthly average at -1.0.So neutral to weak nina? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 I am unsure whether this will officially qualify as a nina but in my mind the atmosphere is already behaving like a weak nina and that is what counts, not SSTAs. Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 I am unsure whether this will officially qualify as a nina but in my mind the atmosphere is already behaving like a weak nina and that is what counts, not SSTAs. Very good point. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MossMan Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 So neutral to weak nina?We have had some great events during those types of winters if I'm not mistaken! Quote Elevation 580’ Location a few miles east of I-5 on the Snohomish Co side of the Snohomish/Skagit border. I love snow/cold AND sun/warmth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastexpat Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 We have had some great events during those types of winters if I'm not mistaken! Yeah, I'm not quite sure why anyone is in such a panic over these small details. Who cares whether it's an official weak nina or cold neutral year... it doesn't make much difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Yeah, I'm not quite sure why anyone is in such a panic over these small details. Who cares whether it's an official weak nina or cold neutral year... it doesn't make much difference.Nope, I don't think it does either. What should be of a little more interest is where the coldest and warmest anomalies are though. Negative anomalies will be central pacific this year. Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-SEA Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Illustration of how this fledgling Nina has shifted to being west-based and how the GOA has warmed dramatically... June 1st: http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anomaly/2016/anomnight.6.2.2016.gif Today: http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anomaly/2016/anomnight.9.19.2016.gif Quote **REPORTED CONDITIONS AND ANOMALIES ARE NOT MEANT TO IMPLY ANYTHING ON A REGIONAL LEVEL UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 The PDO has definitely dropped in response to the stronger NPAC high. Circulation is definitely more Niña-esque, with help from the +QBO. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 The PDO has definitely dropped in response to the stronger NPAC high. Circulation is definitely more Niña-esque, with help from the +QBO.Is that why we're about to get a death ridge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Ranger Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 I am unsure whether this will officially qualify as a nina but in my mind the atmosphere is already behaving like a weak nina and that is what counts, not SSTAs.MEI matters. Quote A forum for the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuffradio Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Is that why we're about to get a death ridge?One man's death ridge is anothers life ridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 MEI matters.This is from the wiki page on how it is made: MEI is determined as the first principal component of six different parameters: sea level pressure, zonal and meridional components of the surface wind, sea surface temperature, surface air temperature and cloudiness using data from the International Comprehensive Ocean-Atmosphere Data Set (ICOADS ). This is a longer and more complete way of saying what I said. So yes, SSTA's are not meaningless, but the MEI uses 5 other parameters in its calculation along with SSTs and is therefore a much more comprehensive view of the system as it considers the atmosphere as well. And as you know, SSTAs are a reflection of longer term atmospheric/oceanic processes. Although SSTAs influence convective anomalies down there (important), the SSTAs themselves are a result of whatever pattern is in play, and therefore by themselves they don't mean a lot as I originally said. 1 Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Is that why we're about to get a death ridge?The +QBO helps you guys during the winter, in that it favors poleward NPAC anticyclones (stronger Pacific blocking, reduced zonal component). So while you'll occasionally wind up underneath the aforementioned ridge, having the amplified ridge is a necessary component for true Arctic air, as opposed to a flat/equatorward ridge that'd lead to something along the lines of 2007/08. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Ranger Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 This is from the wiki page on how it is made: MEI is determined as the first principal component of six different parameters: sea level pressure, zonal and meridional components of the surface wind, sea surface temperature, surface air temperature and cloudiness using data from the International Comprehensive Ocean-Atmosphere Data Set (ICOADS ). This is a longer and more complete way of saying what I said. So yes, SSTA's are not meaningless, but the MEI uses 5 other parameters in its calculation along with SSTs and is therefore a much more comprehensive view of the system as it considers the atmosphere as well. And as you know, SSTAs are a reflection of longer term atmospheric/oceanic processes. Although SSTAs influence convective anomalies down there (important), the SSTAs themselves are a result of whatever pattern is in play, and therefore by themselves they don't mean a lot as I originally said. Yep. 1 Quote A forum for the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deweydog Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Is that why we're about to get a death ridge? 1 Quote My preferences can beat up your preferences’ dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ooooh, a Jesse post I can make a YouTube comment on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deweydog Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ooooh, a Jesse post I can make a YouTube comment on!Very few ridges prove deadly. Quote My preferences can beat up your preferences’ dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Very few ridges prove deadly.It's a meteorological colloquialism. Lighten up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deweydog Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 It's a meteorological colloquialism. Lighten up.Lighten up??? Have you seen today's models??? 2 Quote My preferences can beat up your preferences’ dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Lighten up??? Have you seen today's models???Did you really find my two posts this morning that offensive? Or do you just wish I was more upset? The ridge looks fairly short lived. It did kind of suck to lose that potential cool shot at the end of the month, though. That thing looked pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Ranger Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Jim and others have noted the unusually high surface pressure over the NE Pacific this past summer. This is backed up by the NPI (North Pacific Index), which recorded monthly readings of 1017.59, 1020.14, and 1018.83 in June, July, and August respectively. What do those numbers mean? Combined, the NPI was the highest for any summer on record (back to 1900). The closest was 1915. The June number was highest since 1998. The July number was the highest since 1922. The August number was the highest since 1938. 1 Quote A forum for the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Is that why we're about to get a death ridge? No way to be sure of that yet. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Jim and others have noted the unusually high surface pressure over the NE Pacific this past summer. This is backed up by the NPI (North Pacific Index), which recorded monthly readings of 1017.59, 1020.14, and 1018.83 in June, July, and August respectively. What do those numbers mean? Combined, the NPI was the highest for any summer on record (back to 1900). The closest was 1915. The June number was highest since 1998. The July number was the highest since 1922. The August number was the highest since 1938. 1915...doesn't get much better than that. Out of the 4 years you mentioned there 3 had major Arctic blasts that winter. 1915-16 and 1922-23 were top tier winters. I actually went to the trouble of making a table of NPI anomalies. Much more useful than the actual numbers IMO. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Jim and others have noted the unusually high surface pressure over the NE Pacific this past summer. This is backed up by the NPI (North Pacific Index), which recorded monthly readings of 1017.59, 1020.14, and 1018.83 in June, July, and August respectively. What do those numbers mean? Combined, the NPI was the highest for any summer on record (back to 1900). The closest was 1915. The June number was highest since 1998. The July number was the highest since 1922. The August number was the highest since 1938.Yeah, not only that, but the ENSO CP anomaly (reflective of wind stress forcing) was/is more reminiscent of a very strong Niña. The SSTs seem to be lagging, as it looks like the atmosphere has its mind made up. http://www.esr.org/enso_index.html Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-SEA Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Yeah, not only that, but the ENSO CP anomaly (reflective of wind stress forcing) was/is more reminiscent of a very strong Niña. The SSTs seems to be lagging: http://www.esr.org/enso_index.html Maybe can get a lovely 1998-99 repeat without the strong Nina! Quote **REPORTED CONDITIONS AND ANOMALIES ARE NOT MEANT TO IMPLY ANYTHING ON A REGIONAL LEVEL UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted September 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 The +QBO helps you guys during the winter, in that it favors poleward NPAC anticyclones (stronger Pacific blocking, reduced zonal component). So while you'll occasionally wind up underneath the aforementioned ridge, having the amplified ridge is a necessary component for true Arctic air, as opposed to a flat/equatorward ridge that'd lead to something along the lines of 2007/08. Well said. It's pretty common for our best NPAC blocks to come on the heels of a death ridge near the West Coast. 1 Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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