snow_wizard Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 The mods can feel free to move this thread, but I wanted to at least end up with a link to it here... I was a bit disappointed to see the February monthly sunspot number was 102 which is the highest yet for this cycle. Looking at past cycles it's very normal for most cycles to have a double peak, but the first peak is almost always higher than the second one. We are currently in the second peak...at least it appears we are. It is interesting to note the AP index has been pretty low and is currently only at 4 in spite of sunspot and flux numbers being quite high. Just wondering what some of the people on here that know more about this than me think. Does anyone have a link to a site which shows historic data for the AP index? Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 The mods can feel free to move this thread, but I wanted to at least end up with a link to it here... I was a bit disappointed to see the February monthly sunspot number was 102 which is the highest yet for this cycle. Looking at past cycles it's very normal for most cycles to have a double peak, but the first peak is almost always higher than the second one. We are currently in the second peak...at least it appears we are. It is interesting to note the AP index has been pretty low and is currently only at 4 in spite of sunspot and flux numbers being quite high. Just wondering what some of the people on here that know more about this than me think. Does anyone have a link to a site which shows historic data for the AP index?Don't worry, it's nothing and the Sun will settle down to the SC24 mean this spring. But is it any coincidence that the strongest solar flux surge in 13 years is coinciding with strong WWB activity, forcing the KW currently over the NPAC? The latest peer reviewed literature would suggest not. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Don't worry, it's nothing and the Sun will settle down to the SC24 mean this spring. But is it any coincidence that the strongest solar flux surge in 13 years is coinciding with strong WWB activity, forcing the KW currently over the NPAC? The latest peer reviewed literature would suggest not. I'm sure you're right. I finally managed to find some AP data for the past 20 years and this cycle is shockingly lower than the last one. Do you have the link for the AP graph that goes back several decades? Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigOne Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 I've notice when solar activity is low then cold air seems to go further south. When we had our Feb snowstorm the sun was active for months and then quieted down considerably just before the snows came then in the middle of it the solar activity picked back up and in came the westerlies. The sun isn't the only factor to look at but it does make mild weather more likely either thru riding if ocean conditions allow it or screaming westerlies depending on where ridges and lows set up. The sun can't control placement but it does amplify strength of ridges and troughs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted March 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Still no sign of the sun coming down off of this active period. Kind of disappointing. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Still no sign of the sun coming down off of this active period. Kind of disappointing.That is disappointing. At least it isn't getting any higher, just leveling out. Still WAY below the peak of the last cycle. But yeah, let's hope it starts dropping soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Might as well enjoy it, because this may be the last solar max we'll see for 30-50 years. Latest magnetic data continues to suggest a Maunder-like minimum is on the way. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Might as well enjoy it, because this may be the last solar max we'll see for 30-50 years. Latest magnetic data continues to suggest a Maunder-like minimum is on the way.When do you expect the current maximum to start dropping off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverFallsAndrew Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Might as well enjoy it, because this may be the last solar max we'll see for 30-50 years. Latest magnetic data continues to suggest a Maunder-like minimum is on the way. I pulled all my lawn chairs out, got my SPF 50 sunscreen on, I'm going to ******* enjoy the hell out of it baby! Quote Snowfall Precip 2022-23: 95.0" 2022-23: 17.39" 2021-22: 52.6" 2021-22: 91.46" 2020-21: 12.0" 2020-21: 71.59" 2019-20: 23.5" 2019-20: 58.54" 2018-19: 63.5" 2018-19: 66.33" 2017-18: 30.3" 2017-18: 59.83" 2016-17: 49.2" 2016-17: 97.58" 2015-16: 11.75" 2015-16: 68.67" 2014-15: 3.5" 2013-14: 11.75" 2013-14: 62.30 2012-13: 16.75" 2012-13: 78.45 2011-12: 98.5" 2011-12: 92.67" It's always sunny at Winters Hill! Fighting the good fight against weather evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 When do you expect the current maximum to start dropping off?In 2-3 years..we're at peak now. The solar cycle will begin to fall off gradually between 2016-2018. The current blip will subside soon, obviously. I think you asked this question in another thread and I replied in a more detailed manner..do you remember which thread that was? I'm too lazy to do it again. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 As solar activity gradually fades off, expect periods of somewhat enhanced activity going ahead until it finally goes to bed. This is pretty normal to get a little ebb and flow as you go along. Nothing to worry about as has been said. 1 Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 In 2-3 years..we're at peak now. The solar cycle will begin to fall off gradually between 2016-2018. The current blip will subside soon, obviously. I think you asked this question in another thread and I replied in a more detailed manner..do you remember which thread that was? I'm too lazy to do it again. Usually things drop off very quickly after the second peak, which I think we are in now. It appears it might be starting to quiet down a bit now. Very interesting how low the AP has been through all of this. Currently at around 6. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard mann Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 - [so. ?] What does this "portend"—either whether weatherwise more near-term, or climate wise even more generally perhaps—according to you various different "Space Weather" enthusiasts out there. ? .... http://www.space.com/26206-sun-erupts-3rd-huge-solar-flare.html?cmpid=557672--- @ Quote --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigOne Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I doubt my post will even get seen in all the static but I'll give it a try! I hope we don't have a Carrington Super Flare like 1859 that nearly fried the then new telegraph system and caused some of the telegraph paper to catch fire. Operators during the event found that the telegraph key would still operate even when disconnected from the battery entirely. http://www.solarstorms.org/SS1859.html This link has an archive of ALL our solar flares and recently put old newspaper links into PDF files since the original links for a long time failed and I am glad the updated their site since it has been several YEARS of neglect. During declining phases is usually when the strongest CME's actually happen in between quiet periods. Unless power crews are alert and can disconnect power supplies safely our infrastructure is at serious risk which people have appealed to the government to harden it to no avail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I doubt my post will even get seen in all the static but I'll give it a try! I hope we don't have a Carrington Super Flare like 1859 that nearly fried the then new telegraph system and caused some of the telegraph paper to catch fire. Operators during the event found that the telegraph key would still operate even when disconnected from the battery entirely. http://www.solarstorms.org/SS1859.html This link has an archive of ALL our solar flares and recently put old newspaper links into PDF files since the original links for a long time failed and I am glad the updated their site since it has been several YEARS of neglect. During declining phases is usually when the strongest CME's actually happen in between quiet periods. Unless power crews are alert and can disconnect power supplies safely our infrastructure is at serious risk which people have appealed to the government to harden it to no avail. There is really nothing that could be done to prevent severe damage to the infrastructure if we have an 1859 type event. Today's youth might actually get a chance to find out what it's like to not spend 10 hours a day texting. I'm not sure why you keep writing that you think people won't see your posts. Every time you say that I see them. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigOne Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Any chances that the sunspots might be the cause of our constant onshore flow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Not directly, especially on a year-to-year scale. The sun can affect the EPO/NPAC circulation on longer timescale, though. There's an underlying harmonic which lags the 11yr cycle, most notably. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiztehbest Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Looks like radio flux and sunspots are taking a dip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 It generally has remained active but I just noticed its currently quiet again. Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 On spaceweather it says the sunspot number is 0...which is the first time since 2011. 1 Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted July 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 A zero at that stage of the cycle is pretty much unheard of. Even though it was only totally spotless for one day this kind of supports the predictions for a VERY low cycle coming up. The AP index continues to be much lower on this cycle than on previous cycles. We will soon see if a solar grand minimum might be able to get our winters on track again. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 Yeah its pretty impressive. Just a few small spots today but nothing like what you would expect at this point. Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Still quiet with just one tiny spot. Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 We need the Sun to be quiet w/ the -QBO/MQI to achieve ideal blocking this winter. Not as necessary in a +QBO because an NPAC/EPO ridging is naturally favored in that case.. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Looks like activity is picking up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yeah a little more active again. Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 If we get bombarded, the surf zone will dampen & we can kiss December goodbye as far as cold goes.. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted October 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Very interesting to look at the sun right now. Once that active region rotates off in a couple of days the rest of the sun is nearly spotless. Very impressive how low the AP is remaining in spite of the high flux and active flares. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard mann Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 hey Chris. .. I don't know much about Solar influences as they're looked at. So if I could ask, .. What more exactly are we looking at here above. — Like number of "sunspots" per annum. ? Quote --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard mann Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 You are correct; that is the number of sunspots per year. Another quick question then if you will. .. Does the sun rotate constantly as viewed from our perspective. ? Quote --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Another quick question then if you will. .. Does the sun rotate constantly as viewed from our perspective. ?Technically, yes, it takes ~ 27 days for the Sun to complete a full rotation. The equatorial portion of Sun rotates the fastest, while the polar regions barely rotate. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard mann Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Technically, yes, it takes ~ 27 days for the Sun to complete a full rotation. The equatorial portion of Sun rotates the fastest, while the polar regions barely rotate. Per typical. Just "horn" right in here "Phil". (You'll rationalize the idea of course.) If not perhaps getting what I've meant here even. (?) "zero" thought for any etiquette more deferential. .. Simple preface in front. Rhetoric before any actual form. Main idea furthering whatever. .. "I'm noting that Chris hasn't gotten around to answering this question [that you 've asked] as yet, ... So if I may, here's my appreciation / impression ..." Very well, professor. You may respond to the question, additional, that I had intended to ask Chris, given a more simple (If I may.) response in the affirmative more here. But first, for clarity sake, as as you know certainly, .... where you and I (Being more kind.) try to communicate, more generally certainly leastwise, I .. find myself being (generally) disturbed by and with finding what you've posted, either whether more truncated and slip-shot, or either, more highly involving—with whatever various more tangential additions that you might choose to include where considering whatever theme, e.g., ... this with also more often than not, and your not having either whether been able to understand something very simple that I might have said or asked, with your apparently having pondered it on an much higher level, your answering a question that I having [even] asked. ... ... Let me tell you what I'm seeing here above, in and with what you've provided me as one to the question that I'd posed Chris above, per our exchange. This including .. the different main "confusion" aspects / elements that I'm seeing within it your response above. ... Just to be "extra" clear here. (O.k. ?) First, the "technically" part, or .. angle. ... In this case and circumstance, i.e. with, and in line with the question that I'd asked (?), .. (And I'm being perfectly sincere here.) ... About as "vague" as possible, an opening to a sentence, more instructive, as I can imagine. .... And then, continuing, ... Looked at together with what you've said otherwise following, at would appear, that you might just have wanted to begin what you have, with something more like "More or less"; this perhaps with your even having worked to have qualified this idea somewhat further. Whatever. The point being here that rather than helping / having helped .. me to clue-in better to what you might be saying (Mine own qualification here.), "More or less" being much better (for me.) than your (otherwise.) in effect more, having shown me more, obscurity, where regarding the idea of my question, than had been there present in and with its having been posed. Here, you try it. ..... $ ... Yes, more or less. ..... I]t takes ~ 27 days for the Sun to complete [one] full rotation. The equatorial portion of Sun rotates the fastest, while the polar regions barely rotate. .. The lesser emphasis on the .. "full"er, single .. "rotation", rather than to have helped me see what you'd, had on you mind (apparently.) and had been trying to covey, to me, had also in fact worked to obscure my reading of what your have; ... if to a much lesser extent than ""Technically", "yes". Ok, so then further, ... And believe it on not (don't.), ... The rest of what you've written following, .. though informative (to some extent. By degrees more general.), .. and softened (?) "somewhat" (?) by the more initial, if more unto itself more obscuring .."Technically, yes", .... .. In point of fact only works to scrabble the idea and focus if more secondary, of my question more basic. .. "Does the sun rotate constantly ..... as viewed from our perspective." — This with the term "from" as I've used it here, fairly easily being able to be appreciated even, as more "relative to". .... [Yes. / No. ?] .. This to say nothing (or next to.) where looking at the idea the you haven't "really" worked at all, to clarify, what goes on more "between" the regions more "polar", set against .. the more equatorial "portion", of the sun. .... So. There "we" have it. (??) ... "My stipulation, as to your followup response." (?) .. to my question more at this point, in light of a more affirmative response to that of mine above more initial. (Actually the second question that I had asked "Chris".) ..... How is the idea of counting the spots, both sides, or full the way around the sun, in fact gone about. ? This with also and if I may, more directed to "Chris". "Uhm (?), .. please feel free to chime here also Chris." .......... Quote --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Does it rotate constantly? Yes. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard mann Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 .. So, ok., .... As I've "outlined" above, I've in fact opened the door to idea of working to field, even in necessary, your further response, to my next question, following. (?) — It's highlighted in dark green above. (?) Quote --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard mann Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 .. That's (the heck.) what I'd been trying to get at. Quote --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Hole Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 March results are in -http://s17.postimg.org/sxb5b8vcv/solar_cycle_sunspot_number.gif http://s23.postimg.org/rykrjj5ez/solar_cycle_planetary_a_index.gifSunspots dropping off nicely! Quote Winter 23-24: Total Snow (3.2") Total Ice (0.2") Coldest Low: 1F Coldest High: 5F Snow Events: 0.1" Jan 5th, 0.2" Jan 9th, 1.6" Jan 14, 0.2" (ice) Jan 22, 1.3" Feb 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 19, 2015 Report Share Posted April 19, 2015 While it'd be nice to see the cycle end soon for shorter term results in the high latitude circulations, a longer cycle would be more typical entering a grand minima, and would make predictions much easier. Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiztehbest Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Sunspots back under 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherfan2012 Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 the solar is going to be interisting to follow to see what happens as we get into 2016 and beowed just to see how steep the fall ends up being with cycle 24 after the weak max we had.now we will see and find out just how low this min will end up being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherfan2012 Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Robert Filex has a great artical on the up coming solar min http://iceagenow.info/2015/07/scientists-say-suns-heartbeat-will-bring-on-ice-age/ Phil and geos will like this read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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