Polite Politics

[SilverFallsAndrew]

2 hours ago, hawkstwelve said:

Some of my top questions for the debate tonight...

• Can DeSantis stop the slide of his campaign? His last debate performance was shaky and awkward. It provided many memes to the internet world and caused his poll numbers to continue their decline. He needs an 'Oh wow, that was good' moment tonight in order to stop the donor bleeding and convince everyone he actually has a chance, albeit four campaign reboots later.
• Can Haley continue the momentum? She was a clear winner of the last debate, showing poise and strength while not unwilling to criticize Trump and other Republicans. This has led to her rising in the polls - now in second in NH and SC and third in IA. She'll need another solid performance tonight to show that she is the real deal and the best chance to beat both Trump in the primary and Biden in the general. This will also hopefully get more hesitant donors on her side.
• Does Ramaswamy really belong in the upper echelon of candidates? The summer was undoubtedly "the time of Ramaswamy" with him saturating the media landscape and rising in the polls more than anyone thought possible. He still has a lot of work to do with only 1/3 of Americans even knowing who he is and, although I seemed to be in the minority, I thought his last debate performance was juvenile. He's still polling within the top three behind Trump but has seen his numbers steadily decline over the past month. He'll need to turn that around before he slides off into oblivion. 
• What's the point of the other candidates on the stage? Pence, Scott, Burgum, and Christie are all polling horribly and have barely seen any movement. Pence and Burgum, while I was actually kind of surprised by the latter's performance at the previous debate, need to drop out as they have no clear path to the nomination. Scott was the donor-class darling when he entered the race and already planned a $50 million ad-buy this fall in the early nominating states so although his poll numbers are stuck in the low single digits, he probably won't go anywhere for at least a couple months. Christie is obviously all-in on NH and he's polling around 3rd/4th there but he really doesn't have a lane to run in outside of NH. Most Republicans don't even like him, so he's lucky NH allows Independents to vote in the primary. But he'll probably continue to stay in the race until the NH primary and continue to beat his anti-Trump drum. If it was up to me, all four of these guys would drop out today and throw support around another leading candidate to help consolidate the field but politicians are prideful and never know when to give up so it's probably a pipe dream.
• And finally, but arguably most important: Do any of these debates even matter? Most candidates continue to refuse hitting Trump too hard, instead taking pot shots here and there on certain policy matters they deem would be safe to scrutinize without alienating his base. The fact of the matter is though Trump is polling in the 50-60% range and no one else is even close. Those folks counting on the indictments to shake up the race have now realized it's only strengthened him. A candidate will need to do something drastic in order to have a chance at catching up to him but it looks increasingly likely that won't happen any time soon. So are these debates really just a chance to gain national attention for future political clout? Or could something happen that actually starts to move the needle?

As a political junkie, while the last question is certainly top of mind, I still look forward to watching the debates and seeing how these candidates jockey for (seemingly) second place. I still hold out hope that something crazy will be said, or done, or happen over the next few months to knock Trump down off his perch. Probably futile thinking but if there's any good avenue to start that trend it would be at a nationally televised debate. Crossing my fingers!

Will the debate get more or less viewers than the Colorado @ Oregon football game last Saturday? 

[hawkstwelve]

9 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Will the debate get more or less viewers than the Colorado @ Oregon football game last Saturday? 

Tough call. 10 million for that game, almost 13 million for the previous debate.

[Andie]

Why don’t I feel comfortable!

https://www.foxnews.com/us/pentagon-deploys-low-yield-nuclear-weapin-for-first-time

[Andie]

1 hour ago, hawkstwelve said:

Tough call. 10 million for that game, almost 13 million for the previous debate.

Most people’s minds are made up.  

[Anti Marine Layer]

23 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Blah blah blah freedom for me but not for thee, you're a "Marxist," etc.

Utterly predictable.

It's Marx who wanted to abolish religion, tradition and family though, not the other way around. He wanted freedom from religion, not freedom of religion.

The Founding Fathers said the health and success of our nation depends on a moral and religious people, (e.g. good advice to follow) even though they did not establish a theocracy.

If you want abortion, government should not force a Christian doctor to perform one. Let the government health insurance agency take care of it.

Government forcing someone to attend a Christian church every Sunday would violate freedom of religion, but making laws against abortion is not imposing my religion on someone, since some atheists believe abortion is immoral too. Also without rampant pre-marital sex, abortions would become less necessary. Less drug addiction would also mean less homeless people pooping in the streets. 

Finally "my body, my choice" applies to vaccine mandates too. 

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

4 hours ago, Chewbacca Defense said:

I think term limits for congress would be a very good first step, then see how things shake out from there.

We have to do something to get money out of politics, else term limits will mean that those with the most expertise and long-term inside knowledge on Capitol Hill will be the lobbyists, and I’m pretty sure that won’t be a big improvement.

In fact, for this reason, I have long been skeptical of term limits at all. It’s not as if McConnell or Feinstein forced anyone to vote for them… ultimately the fault for their continued incumbency lies with the voters. (Though there are already presidential term limits in the USA, so it would hardly be a new thing entirely.)

Practically, as with presidential term limits, it would take a constitutional amendment to enact congressional term limits or a mandatory retirement age, so I’m not holding my breath.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:29 PM, Anti Marine Layer said:

“Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” 

Seriously, strip out the “religious” part and you have a bit of timeless wisdom that applies to any set of written rules.

If people are not bound by any sense of morals, and it’s just rules, they will find no end of ways to abide by the letter of them while totally violating their spirit. It doesn’t much matter how well-intentioned the rules, or how brilliant their authors.

[roadtonowhere08]

42 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

If you want abortion, government should not force a Christian doctor to perform one. Let the government health insurance agency take care of it.

Government forcing someone to attend a Christian church every Sunday would violate freedom of religion, but making laws against abortion is not imposing my religion on someone, since some atheists believe abortion is immoral too. Also without rampant pre-marital sex, abortions would become less necessary. Less drug addiction would also mean less homeless people pooping in the streets. 

Finally "my body, my choice" applies to vaccine mandates too. 

 

Last I checked, lack of sexual education leads to a lot of unwanted pregnancies.  And for funsies, which side was it again who considers anything related to sex education taboo and verboten?

[Anti Marine Layer]

5 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Last I checked, lack of sexual education leads to a lot of unwanted pregnancies.  And for funsies, which side was it again who considers anything related to sex education taboo and verboten?

Does telling Kindergarten students who are biological males that some of them are girls and that there are 456 genders prevent unwanted pregnancies? 

I'd guess by the time you're mature and old enough to reproduce, you'd probably know that sex can cause pregnancy. Parents should teach their children that, or else they are idiots. 

[hawkstwelve]

54 minutes ago, Andie said:

Most people’s minds are made up.  

I think so too, to a certain degree, but some polls show that may not be the case.

This is a pretty different cycle than just about any previous primary cycle before it. If I were Trump, I certainly wouldn't be spiking the ball even if you're up by two touchdowns in the fourth quarter. Obviously that's what he's doing and he wants to make it seem like it's already over, which it very well may be, but hey... Stranger things have happened.

[Anti Marine Layer]

37 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Seriously, strip out the “religious” part and you have a bit of timeless wisdom that applies to any set of written rules.

If people are not bound by any sense of morals, and it’s just rules, they will find no end of ways to abide by the letter of them while totally violating their spirit. It doesn’t much matter how well-intentioned the rules, or how brilliant their authors.

On a side note, they had an anarchist system in Lord of the Flies. It didn't work out too well.

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Does telling Kindergarten students who are biological males that some of them are girls and that there are 456 genders prevent unwanted pregnancies? 

I'd guess by the time you're mature and old enough to reproduce, you'd probably know that sex can cause pregnancy. Parents should teach their children that, or else they are idiots. 

That answer does not live in the real word... only the land of straw people. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

That answer does not live in the real word... only the land of straw people. 

It did in the 1960s before the sexual revolution. 

[hawkstwelve]

On every commercial break, both this debate and last, all the candidates scurry off the stage quickly to go talk with their advisors. Except one. Haley has stayed on the stage every single time. My wife pointed this out to me last debate and it's remaining true so far in this one.

Shows a level of confidence that the other folks don't have, IMO. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

BINGO!

[Rubus Leucodermis]

3 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

On a side note, they had an anarchist system in Lord of the Flies. It didn't work out too well.

A work of fiction.

Meanwhile, here on planet reality, here is what actually happened when some boys were stranded on an island:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

[Rubus Leucodermis]

18 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

BINGO!

That meddlesome Lincoln should have upheld traditional values, realized that Blacks were inferior beings and natural slaves, and not contaminated the USA with his Marxist abolitionist nonsense.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm

[roadtonowhere08]

25 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

BINGO!

You just saw the term "Marxist" and screenshot it.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Vivek Ramaswamy has once again proven a target, with Nikki Haley at one point telling the political newcomer: "Every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber."

Didn't waste my time watching a bunch of also rans, but points to Nikki for this gem.

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

You just saw the term "Marxist" and screenshot it.

 

Yep, he was another critical theorist. Some say he started the political correctness movement on college campuses. 

[roadtonowhere08]

16 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Yep, he was another critical theorist. Some say he started the political correctness movement on college campuses. 

Searching for relevance to "sexual education lowering unwanted pregnancies".....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................none found 

[Anti Marine Layer]

14 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Searching for relevance to "sexual education lowering unwanted pregnancies".....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................none found 

Before the sexual revolution, most people only had sex within marriage and there was very little pornography and adultery and sodomy. The sexual revolution came from the left.

But it also shows Marxists (such as Herbert Marcuse) developed critical theory, from which CRT evolved.

[SnarkyGoblin]

Not a great look for the House who will simultaneously be causing a government shutdown AND doing a completely frivolous impeachment hearing all in the same week!

[Iceresistance]

41 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Not a great look for the House who will simultaneously be causing a government shutdown AND doing a completely frivolous impeachment hearing all in the same week!

Combine that with Strikes and unexpectedly higher inflation.

[Iceresistance]

So, who won the 2nd Debate last night?

[Anti Marine Layer]

16 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

So, who won the 2nd Debate last night?

Not him

He started the culture war.

[Iceresistance]

Affirmative Action was ruled as Illegal, but the DEI is now being used as a weapon and justification to discriminate.

 

Colleges are using DEI criteria to discriminate (msn.com)

[SilverFallsAndrew]

The general consensus is Trump was the bigger winner of the debate last night. Many are calling for the remaining GOP debates to be canceled. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

Hypothetical conversations:

Richard Delgado (CRT Scholar): So we gathered at that convent for two and a half days, around a table in an austere room with stained glass windows and crucifixes here and there - an odd place for a bunch of Marxists - and worked out a set of principles. Then we went our separate ways. 

Rubus Leucodermis: You call yourself a Marxist? You're wrong. You should not equate all forms of political struggle with Marxism.

---------------------------

Patrisse Cullors (BLM Founder): We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk.

SnarkyGoblin: What is your Marxist nonsense all about? I think Trump and those right-wing nutjobs told you that you're a Marxist, and now you believe them.

[Iceresistance]

41 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

The general consensus is Trump was the bigger winner of the debate last night. Many are calling for the remaining GOP debates to be canceled. 

They were hoping the indictments would destroy Trump, but they only made him stronger.

[hawkstwelve]

47 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

The general consensus is Trump was the bigger winner of the debate last night. Many are calling for the remaining GOP debates to be canceled. 

Pulling a page out of Trump's playbook, are ya?

"Many people call me the best President of all time. They say there has never been another like me."

"Many people say that the Ukraine phone call was perfect. Absolutely perfect. Nothing wrong."

"Many people say I am innocent of all charges and this is just political persecution. They say I did nothing wrong."

In reality, a very small handful of people say those things. In reality, only Trump is saying the GOP debates should be cancelled. Let's not pretend that call is coming from anyone other than MAGA world.

[Iceresistance]

There is reportedly another munity in the Russian Army.

 

I can't post news links right now as it could be fake news and it just came out, I may be able to do it when there is more information available.

[Andie]

Just some food for thought   Argue among yourselves- or not.

“Retiring Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Mark Milley is hitting the media circuit as he retires. How odd of him to warn about all the unconstitutional measures that Donald Trump threatened to enact that supposedly justified the illegal or unethical acts that his opponents in the military and intelligence community actually did.

Or to put it another way, Biden’s abject corruption, his chronic lying, his unapologetic racial condescension, his utter destruction of the border, and his dementia still would not justify Milley’s replacement to call his communist Chinese counterpart to warn him that Biden was cognitively inert and dangerous, or to order theater commanders  to ignore Biden-routed orders and instead report directly to him.

Nor would Biden’s pathologies justify a dozen or so retired 4-stars to violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice by publicly blasting Biden a liar, a Mussolini, and to be gone the sooner the better.

Nor would Biden’s failed and dangerous presidency warrant a former Pentagon lawyer to publish a warning that he needed to be removed by a possible military coup.”

Victor David Hanson

Sr Fellow, The Hoover Institute

 

 

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

11 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Hypothetical conversations:

Richard Delgado (CRT Scholar): So we gathered at that convent for two and a half days, around a table in an austere room with stained glass windows and crucifixes here and there - an odd place for a bunch of Marxists - and worked out a set of principles. Then we went our separate ways. 

Rubus Leucodermis: You call yourself a Marxist? You're wrong. You should not equate all forms of political struggle with Marxism.

---------------------------

Patrisse Cullors (BLM Founder): We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk.

SnarkyGoblin: What is your Marxist nonsense all about? I think Trump and those right-wing nutjobs told you that you're a Marxist, and now you believe them.

Show me on the doll where the Marxist touched you.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

23 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Before the sexual revolution, most people only had sex within marriage and there was very little pornography and adultery and sodomy. The sexual revolution came from the left.

But it also shows Marxists (such as Herbert Marcuse) developed critical theory, from which CRT evolved.

It all went downhill when they stopped putting women on trial for witchcraft and then followed up by abolishing slavery.

[SnarkyGoblin]

Looks like Time took care of at least 1 old geezer in Congress.

[Andie]

I don’t think this is a complete list but it’s a start.  
Charles Grassley 89
Dianne Feinstein 90
Grace Napolitano 86
Eleanor Norton 85
Harold Rogers 85
Bill Pascrell Jr. 85
Maxine Waters 84
Steny Hoyer 83
James Clyburn 82
Nancy Pelosi 82
Bernie Sanders 81
Danny Davis 81
John Carter 81
Mitch McConnell 80
Anna Eshoo 80
Fredrica Wilson 80

 

[Iceresistance]

33 minutes ago, Andie said:

I don’t think this is a complete list but it’s a start.  
Charles Grassley 89
Dianne Feinstein 90
Grace Napolitano 86
Eleanor Norton 85
Harold Rogers 85
Bill Pascrell Jr. 85
Maxine Waters 84
Steny Hoyer 83
James Clyburn 82
Nancy Pelosi 82
Bernie Sanders 81
Danny Davis 81
John Carter 81
Mitch McConnell 80
Anna Eshoo 80
Fredrica Wilson 80

 

She just passed away today

[SnarkyGoblin]

Politics and policies aside, how good of a job could you possibly be doing when you're literally on your death bed?

It's so hard to imagine being in a position like that and staying on your job.  Why not spend your last days and months with family and friends?

[Iceresistance]

15 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Politics and policies aside, how good of a job could you possibly be doing when you're literally on your death bed?

It's so hard to imagine being in a position like that and staying on your job.  Why not spend your last days and months with family and friends?

I mean, there are points where they want to hold on to their seats until there is a successor, both Democrats and Republicans have done it. In Oklahoma, Jim Imhoff was still holding onto his seat until he had a successor in 2021, who was Markwayne Mullin. 

 

Like, seriously? Are they going to fight to their very end?

 

 

I mean, even though I never liked Dianne Feinstein, she never deserved to die while still holding onto her seat. 

[Iceresistance]

Elon Musk wanted to see proof of the madness at border by going there himself, and it is true...

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/elon-musk-goes-to-the-border-and-leaves-stunned-complete-madness/

[SnarkyGoblin]

24 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

I mean, there are points where they want to hold on to their seats until there is a successor, both Democrats and Republicans have done it. In Oklahoma, Jim Imhoff was still holding onto his seat until he had a successor in 2021, who was Markwayne Mullin. 

A "Successor" sounds an awful lot like what Americans were fighting against in the late 1700's

Let the voters decide.

[Iceresistance]

1 minute ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

A "Successor" sounds an awful lot like what Americans were fighting against in the late 1700's

Let the voters decide.

This is a different type of successor, not like a King to the next generation. They want a sucessor to keep their seat in the same party.

They don't want an opposing party to challenge the seat when they are retiring, they will be looking for someone in the same political party to replace them, and when they find a candidate that can do it, the older senator/representative can retire without worry of losing their seat to the opposite party. That is what is happening right now.

[Anti Marine Layer]

11 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Show me on the doll where the Marxist touched you.

[Andie]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Elon Musk wanted to see proof of the madness at border by going there himself, and it is true...

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/elon-musk-goes-to-the-border-and-leaves-stunned-complete-madness/

I guess he considers himself a Texan due to his company being here. (Actually old school definition is you’re born a Texan.). Moving here barely counts. But even as a concerned American, his influence is limited, though welcomed, if he can affect change.  

The human, adult and child, trafficking is off the hook. Most women are raped and children abused, trafficked into child work factories.  This is anything but humane.  

[SnarkyGoblin]

46 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Ok that was pretty funny.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

2 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

I mean, there are points where they want to hold on to their seats until there is a successor, both Democrats and Republicans have done it. In Oklahoma, Jim Imhoff was still holding onto his seat until he had a successor in 2021, who was Markwayne Mullin.

I dunno, in both cases I would say “just go already!”

I mean is a ruby-red state like OK going to appoint a Dem to fill Imhoff’s seat? Is deep-blue California going to appoint a GOP’er to fill Feinstein’s? How likely is that? Maintaining a partisan edge for one’s team really can’t explain either case. Gotta be ego, and anyone with that much of an ego problem probably doesn’t belong in office in the first place.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

58 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

How many pins have you stuck into it?

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

How many pins have you stuck into it?

The number of genders the critical theorists claim to exist.

[SnarkyGoblin]

You know what might be a winning strategy for a GOP primary candidate? Someone like Haley really needs to go after Congress and especially the Matt Gaetz 's of Congress.

That might be a general election thing but you know it's gonna happen if trump somehow loses.  They don't need those goons in the general and that type of "Enough!" sentiment from someone in the same party will be extremely appealing to a broad electorate.