Polite Politics

[SilverFallsAndrew]

2 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Biden mishandled classified documents, too, but the difference is that Biden has a plausible claim to having done so accidentally and unknowingly (which is bolstered by how he voluntarily reported the documents once his aides discovered them), while Trump is on tape telling his people to hide the classified documents and not turn them over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Yeah, it is an apples to oranges comparison. Biden is so compromised mentally, I'm sure he had no idea what was even going on. 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

16 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

The only reason Kristol hates Trump is because he couldn't convince him to start any new wars. 

There is quite a bit of truth in that.

More broadly, it is foreign policy, and the leg of the three-legged stool of the old GOP that Kristol was part of: the national security and foreign policy leg. Trump did a whole lot to piss that element off, and it wasn't shying away from military engagement. Being buffoonish and undermining confidence in American stability, praising historical adversaries like Kim Jong Un and Putin, racist dog-whistles (many foreign countries the USA is trying to keep in its orbit are majority nonwhite), etc. made Trump unpopular with the neocons.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 minute ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Yeah, it is an apples to oranges comparison. Biden is so compromised mentally, I'm sure he had no idea what was even going on. 

For someone who is so compromised mentally, he seems to have had a lot of success with his legislative agenda. What does that say about McCarthy if he loses to a senile old grandpa?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

45 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

How does a loss help when you won't acknowledge you lost? It's maddening talking to those who have drunk the cool-aid.

Nothing motivates like self-interest, in this case, the interest in wanting one’s own team to win.

[Chewbacca Defense]

40 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Thing is Biden plays the game, Trump doesn't and now he will pay. 

To break that down, yes all politicians are criminals, but most operate within the code of the DC club. Trump thought he could do things his own way and get away with it. 

I have been struggling to figure out how to verbalize my thoughts on this, and you said it perfectly.  I'm not saying I am ok with this notion by any stretch of the imagination, (and I think you feel the same way) but yeah, there has traditionally been a set unspoken rules that politicians have followed.  I think they have traditionally tried to do what's right (or at least "not wrong") and pick up a few/several million for themselves along the way.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

26 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

For someone who is so compromised mentally, he seems to have had a lot of success with his legislative agenda. What does that say about McCarthy if he loses to a senile old grandpa?

I see you are in the Biden = FDR Jr. camp.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Just now, Chewbacca Defense said:

I have been struggling to figure out how to verbalize my thoughts on this, and you said it perfectly.  I'm not saying I am ok with this notion by any stretch of the imagination, (and I think you feel the same way) but yeah, there has traditionally been a set unspoken rules that politicians have followed.  I think they have traditionally tried to do what's right (or at least "not wrong") and pick up a few/several million for themselves along the way.

Something like this, operating within the status quo/democratic norms. Might not be what is best, but it is better than complete chaos. 

[GHweatherChris]

Boy with all the quality knowledge in this thread I am shocked some of you aren't throwing your hats in the presidential race, I mean you got it all figured out  MAGA

[Andie]

Well, the big difference in the end will be that the Dem Party will likely stick together while the Republicans will argue among themselves.  
Big failure on the Republican side.  

[MossMan]

Good god this country just keeps getting more and more divided which is making us look weaker and weaker in the eyes of the rest of the world. Everyone has the answer and they are right…In reality nobody has a freaking clue. 
Just live life and be a good person…Is it really that hard? 

[roadtonowhere08]

2 hours ago, MossMan said:

Good god this country just keeps getting more and more divided which is making us look weaker and weaker in the eyes of the rest of the world. Everyone has the answer and they are right…In reality nobody has a freaking clue. 
Just live life and be a good person…Is it really that hard? 

Apparently so.  It's easier to tear down than help build up.

[SnarkyGoblin]

13 hours ago, MossMan said:

Just live life and be a good person…Is it really that hard? 

Couldn't agree with you more.

I'm surprised there aren't more libertarian leaning folks on here.

[SnarkyGoblin]

16 hours ago, GHweatherChris said:

Boy with all the quality knowledge in this thread I am shocked some of you aren't throwing your hats in the presidential race, I mean you got it all figured out  MAGA

Ah yes - another one of Chris' put downs with absolutely no other contribution to the conversation.  

Very helpful post.

[SnarkyGoblin]

In the public arena, though, it may be a one-sided fight. Mr. Trump and his allies can scream as loudly as they can that the system is unfair, but prosecutors are bound by rules limiting how much they can say in response. To the extent that Democrats defend prosecutors, it may only buttress the point Mr. Trump is trying to make to the audience he is trying to reach.

“I think the verdict on democracy ultimately comes down to Republican leaders and Republican voters,” said David Jolly, a former Republican congressman from Florida who left the party during the Trump presidency. “Their current weaponization narrative is dangerous and destabilizing, but seems to reflect the party’s early consensus. If they don’t pivot soon to due process and faith in the system, I think we could have very dark days ahead. I do worry.”

Link

[Anti Marine Layer]

8 Disturbing Similarities between the Democrat and Nazi Parties

 

[Anti Marine Layer]

 

[SnarkyGoblin]

10 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

8 Disturbing Similarities between the Democrat and Nazi Parties

 

Which party were the traitors at the capitol part of again? 

Which party are the politicians currently undermining the rule of law and threatening "war" after the recent indictment?

Fix your own house before you start throwing stones.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Which party were the traitors at the capitol part of again? 

Which party are the politicians currently undermining the rule of law and threatening "war" after the recent indictment?

Fix your own house before you start throwing stones.

Hitler liked German Shepherds and doted on Blondi.

Biden likes German Shepherds and dotes on Major.

Mere coincidence? I think not.

Plus, evidence points to both of them also enjoying food.

[Anti Marine Layer]

3 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Couldn't agree with you more.

I'm surprised there aren't more libertarian leaning folks on here.

Which of these summaries is closer to your views on immigration, civil rights, and health care?

https://blog.libertasbella.com/libertarian-vs-liberal/

Immigration

Libertarian: This party believes that free movement and trade should have no border, and anyone should be allowed to morally move products and services across country lines. If you’re trying to do so ethically, there shouldn’t be any bureaucratic interference, such as tariffs, regulations, or duties.

That said, Libertarians understand the potential economic impact of immigration and how it can “suck the well dry,” so to speak, but the Conservative mentality of immigrants coming to the country to live off the welfare state and take our jobs doesn’t hold any weight in a Libertarian society.

Liberal: This is another situation where Liberals prefer to step back and let nature work itself out. Liberals believe in open-borders and that we have no right to control who comes or goes from our country. As you can likely tell, this is considered highly reckless to both Conservatives and Libertarians. Conservatives believe that it’s our responsibility to think of our own citizens first, and we need to protect our borders to keep ourselves safe.

Civil Rights

Libertarian: Our government allows citizens a certain number of rights provided they can conduct themselves responsibly. For example, the second amendment is the “right to bear arms.” As a citizen, each person has the right to own a gun provided they do not use it to recklessly harm others.

The same applies to same-sex marriage. You have the right to marry who you want, but you cannot attempt to take legal action or smear the reputation of a church leader or business that doesn’t want to participate in the union.

Liberal: This is the area where freedoms tend to compound, and the original foundation of Liberalism comes into play. Liberals believe that the individual should have the right to do with their lives as they please. This means they can marry who they like, do with their bodies as they choose, and right for their rights if they feel they’ve been mistreated.

Liberals believe that everyone should share these beliefs and that it’s up to the government to enforce this. For example, while Liberals believe that same-sex marriage is a right, they think that the government needs to force these beliefs on everyone.

Health Care

Libertarian: Libertarians believe that it’s your right to choose your medical providers and treatments. They see that the government interferes in the progression of medicine by imposing harsh regulations on pharmaceutical companies and laboratories to limit the use of experimental health care.

Liberal: The Liberal vs. Libertarian belief is that health care is better left in the hand of the government because individual medicine will lead to corruption, inflated prices, and monopolization. This contrasts the Capitalist way of thinking where many Conservatives believe that it’s up to the individual to decide what type of health care they’d like, how they’d like to pay for it, and where they’d want to go for it.

 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Biden is more of an accidental hitler. A bad person for sure, but out of his mind and just being used like a now.

[Andie]

30 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Biden is more of an accidental hitler. A bad person for sure, but out of his mind and just being used like a now.

I keep asking, "Who's driving the bus?"  His Chief of Staff, Cabinet? Some group of Senators?

Sure couldn't be Kamala.  She can't run her own staff.

[SnarkyGoblin]

1 hour ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Biden is more of an accidental hitler. A bad person for sure, but out of his mind and just being used like a now.

Wtf?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

3 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Which of these summaries is closer to your views on immigration, civil rights, and health care?

https://blog.libertasbella.com/libertarian-vs-liberal/

Immigration

Libertarian: This party believes that free movement and trade should have no border, and anyone should be allowed to morally move products and services across country lines. If you’re trying to do so ethically, there shouldn’t be any bureaucratic interference, such as tariffs, regulations, or duties.

That said, Libertarians understand the potential economic impact of immigration and how it can “suck the well dry,” so to speak, but the Conservative mentality of immigrants coming to the country to live off the welfare state and take our jobs doesn’t hold any weight in a Libertarian society.

Liberal: This is another situation where Liberals prefer to step back and let nature work itself out. Liberals believe in open-borders and that we have no right to control who comes or goes from our country. As you can likely tell, this is considered highly reckless to both Conservatives and Libertarians. Conservatives believe that it’s our responsibility to think of our own citizens first, and we need to protect our borders to keep ourselves safe.

Civil Rights

Libertarian: Our government allows citizens a certain number of rights provided they can conduct themselves responsibly. For example, the second amendment is the “right to bear arms.” As a citizen, each person has the right to own a gun provided they do not use it to recklessly harm others.

The same applies to same-sex marriage. You have the right to marry who you want, but you cannot attempt to take legal action or smear the reputation of a church leader or business that doesn’t want to participate in the union.

Liberal: This is the area where freedoms tend to compound, and the original foundation of Liberalism comes into play. Liberals believe that the individual should have the right to do with their lives as they please. This means they can marry who they like, do with their bodies as they choose, and right for their rights if they feel they’ve been mistreated.

Liberals believe that everyone should share these beliefs and that it’s up to the government to enforce this. For example, while Liberals believe that same-sex marriage is a right, they think that the government needs to force these beliefs on everyone.

Health Care

Libertarian: Libertarians believe that it’s your right to choose your medical providers and treatments. They see that the government interferes in the progression of medicine by imposing harsh regulations on pharmaceutical companies and laboratories to limit the use of experimental health care.

Liberal: The Liberal vs. Libertarian belief is that health care is better left in the hand of the government because individual medicine will lead to corruption, inflated prices, and monopolization. This contrasts the Capitalist way of thinking where many Conservatives believe that it’s up to the individual to decide what type of health care they’d like, how they’d like to pay for it, and where they’d want to go for it.

 

And liberals eat babies, too.

[SnarkyGoblin]

3 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Which of these summaries is closer to your views on immigration, civil rights, and health care?

https://blog.libertasbella.com/libertarian-vs-liberal/

Immigration

Libertarian: This party believes that free movement and trade should have no border, and anyone should be allowed to morally move products and services across country lines. If you’re trying to do so ethically, there shouldn’t be any bureaucratic interference, such as tariffs, regulations, or duties.

That said, Libertarians understand the potential economic impact of immigration and how it can “suck the well dry,” so to speak, but the Conservative mentality of immigrants coming to the country to live off the welfare state and take our jobs doesn’t hold any weight in a Libertarian society.

Liberal: This is another situation where Liberals prefer to step back and let nature work itself out. Liberals believe in open-borders and that we have no right to control who comes or goes from our country. As you can likely tell, this is considered highly reckless to both Conservatives and Libertarians. Conservatives believe that it’s our responsibility to think of our own citizens first, and we need to protect our borders to keep ourselves safe.

Civil Rights

Libertarian: Our government allows citizens a certain number of rights provided they can conduct themselves responsibly. For example, the second amendment is the “right to bear arms.” As a citizen, each person has the right to own a gun provided they do not use it to recklessly harm others.

The same applies to same-sex marriage. You have the right to marry who you want, but you cannot attempt to take legal action or smear the reputation of a church leader or business that doesn’t want to participate in the union.

Liberal: This is the area where freedoms tend to compound, and the original foundation of Liberalism comes into play. Liberals believe that the individual should have the right to do with their lives as they please. This means they can marry who they like, do with their bodies as they choose, and right for their rights if they feel they’ve been mistreated.

Liberals believe that everyone should share these beliefs and that it’s up to the government to enforce this. For example, while Liberals believe that same-sex marriage is a right, they think that the government needs to force these beliefs on everyone.

Health Care

Libertarian: Libertarians believe that it’s your right to choose your medical providers and treatments. They see that the government interferes in the progression of medicine by imposing harsh regulations on pharmaceutical companies and laboratories to limit the use of experimental health care.

Liberal: The Liberal vs. Libertarian belief is that health care is better left in the hand of the government because individual medicine will lead to corruption, inflated prices, and monopolization. This contrasts the Capitalist way of thinking where many Conservatives believe that it’s up to the individual to decide what type of health care they’d like, how they’d like to pay for it, and where they’d want to go for it.

 

If you're going to define already well defined philosophies, please at least try to use something that is accurate.  What you posted is more partisan garbage.

Never claimed to be libertarian.  I'm definitely on the liberal side. But I can certainly appreciate the live and let live mentality that I wish conservatives would adopt.  In practical terms, it's just not feasible to expect individuals to educate our kids, build our roads, etc.

[Anti Marine Layer]

2 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

And liberals eat babies, too.

The abortion pills do

[Andie]

2 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Never claimed to be libertarian.  I'm definitely on the liberal side. But I can certainly appreciate the live and let live mentality that I wish conservatives would adopt.  In practical terms, it's just not feasible to expect individuals to educate our kids, build our roads, etc.

I’ve practice the ‘live and let live’ philosophy all my life. I learned it from my dad and he managed to get along with folks while not being just like them.  
With society so complex and different from coast to coast I don’t know how anyone reaches agreement.  

I suppose I’m a libertarian with conservative leanings. It’s harder for me to agree with the more left end of the Left but I see their point and agree with some.  No one can be 100% anything imo. Maybe I’m wrong there. Dunno. 

[MossMan]

Merry Christmas! Shiitter was full! 

[Anti Marine Layer]

13 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

If you're going to define already well defined philosophies, please at least try to use something that is accurate.  What you posted is more partisan garbage.

Never claimed to be libertarian.  I'm definitely on the liberal side. But I can certainly appreciate the live and let live mentality that I wish conservatives would adopt.  In practical terms, it's just not feasible to expect individuals to educate our kids, build our roads, etc.

So are you saying the government should educate our kids via the public schools and parents should not have a right to know what they are being taught? I understand there are some bad parents, but in general I think it is the parents' responsibility to discipline their children and raise them up to be good people. 

While not all Democrats are for open borders, single payer health care, and forcing pastors to marry homosexual couples against their religious beliefs, it seems the percentage is larger than ever before.

Finally I understand that banning abortion, for example, is not exactly small government or live and let live, but some conservatives actually believe it is murder.

 

[Iceresistance]

16 hours ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Biden is more of an accidental hitler. A bad person for sure, but out of his mind and just being used like a now.

No, he's more like a puppet.

[SnarkyGoblin]

2 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

So are you saying the government should educate our kids via the public schools and parents should not have a right to know what they are being taught?

Where did I say any of this?  Zero problems with parents knowing anything and everything about their kid at school. 

I'm saying I believe abolishing the department of education will dramatically decrease the quality of education in our country. 

[Iceresistance]

I can't find a good spot to put this, but I-95 in Philadelphia is completely closed because a bridge collapsed from a vehicle fire, the fire must be very intense for something like this to happen.

[SnarkyGoblin]

19 hours ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Biden is more of an accidental hitler. A bad person for sure, but out of his mind and just being used like a now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/11/videos-show-nazi-flags-desantis-sign-disney-world/70310731007/

Actual Nazis.

[Anti Marine Layer]

2 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Where did I say any of this?  Zero problems with parents knowing anything and everything about their kid at school. 

I'm saying I believe abolishing the department of education will dramatically decrease the quality of education in our country. 

I wasn't sure what you meant when you said individuals should not educate our kids. I think there should be options to go to private schools, charter schools or home schooling and I don't think political ideology, left or right, should be taught in public schools. 

[MossMan]

It’s over for Pat. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

37 minutes ago, MossMan said:

It’s over for Pat. 

Naw

[SnarkyGoblin]

David Frum, a rare good conservative these days:

DeSantis, McCarthy, and the others must be well aware that Trump is in the wrong. They do not insist that Trump is innocent, only that it’s improper to hold him to account. The law is being weaponized, they say, to pursue a party leader (their party leader).

These Republican leaders expect to extract some short-term advantage from their double game. Maybe that’s a plausible calculation. But it is likely to prove, ultimately, a self-harming one.

The big post-Trump choice for conservatives is whether they rejoin the mainstream of American life or wander ever further away from it, toward outright rejection of law and democracy. Voluntarily breaking with Trump is one way to make that choice. Few conservatives have dared to do so at all, and even fewer have dared to consistently.

Now federal prosecutors have opened an easier way. Republican leaders need not explicitly make that break. They need only repeat the standard formula about any pending criminal investigation: “I have no comment at this time. Every accused person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The law will take its course.” That’s it. Problem solved.

This is the right thing to do. It’s the prudent thing to do. And any other course of action points to horrible dangers ahead: a future in which the conservative-minded people who should be America’s strongest bulwarks of law and constitutional order mutate into an enduring malcontent faction willing to subvert that order.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fideas%2Farchive%2F2023%2F06%2Fdesantis-mccarthy-republicans-trump-indictment%2F674350%2F

[hawkstwelve]

24 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

David Frum, a rare good conservative these days:

DeSantis, McCarthy, and the others must be well aware that Trump is in the wrong. They do not insist that Trump is innocent, only that it’s improper to hold him to account. The law is being weaponized, they say, to pursue a party leader (their party leader).

These Republican leaders expect to extract some short-term advantage from their double game. Maybe that’s a plausible calculation. But it is likely to prove, ultimately, a self-harming one.

The big post-Trump choice for conservatives is whether they rejoin the mainstream of American life or wander ever further away from it, toward outright rejection of law and democracy. Voluntarily breaking with Trump is one way to make that choice. Few conservatives have dared to do so at all, and even fewer have dared to consistently.

Now federal prosecutors have opened an easier way. Republican leaders need not explicitly make that break. They need only repeat the standard formula about any pending criminal investigation: “I have no comment at this time. Every accused person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The law will take its course.” That’s it. Problem solved.

This is the right thing to do. It’s the prudent thing to do. And any other course of action points to horrible dangers ahead: a future in which the conservative-minded people who should be America’s strongest bulwarks of law and constitutional order mutate into an enduring malcontent faction willing to subvert that order.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fideas%2Farchive%2F2023%2F06%2Fdesantis-mccarthy-republicans-trump-indictment%2F674350%2F

Agree with all of this.

Pretty disheartened to see how quickly Republicans have jumped to "Biden is weaponizing the DOJ and FBI by going after his political opponent". I suppose it was naive of me to think that we, as a collective party, could use this very easy off ramp to start distancing ourselves from Trump. But no... no one wants to piss off his diehard 20-30% of the base so instead they'll just sink the entire party. Super frustrating. 

[Chewbacca Defense]

19 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

I can't find a good spot to put this, but I-95 in Philadelphia is completely closed because a bridge collapsed from a vehicle fire, the fire must be very intense for something like this to happen.

Happened in Atlanta a few years ago on a major artery going out of the city center.  With freeway set up, its relatively easy to get around, however given the fact that Atlanta has traffic congestion on all freeways from 5-6am to 9-10pm pretty much every day, it was a traffic nightmare, and happened before 2017 and the "national exercise in remote working."

[Rubus Leucodermis]

50 minutes ago, hawkstwelve said:

Agree with all of this.

Pretty disheartened to see how quickly Republicans have jumped to "Biden is weaponizing the DOJ and FBI by going after his political opponent". I suppose it was naive of me to think that we, as a collective party, could use this very easy off ramp to start distancing ourselves from Trump. But no... no one wants to piss off his diehard 20-30% of the base so instead they'll just sink the entire party. Super frustrating. 

The thing is, if they would piss off that 20–30%, they would basically seal their loss in 2024, BUT:

• Most voters, particularly the low-information ones (and these are overrepresented in that fraction), have surprisingly short memories. Wait till 2028 and it would be mostly “Trump who?” Taking a principled stand would thus ultimately BENEFIT the Republicans despite any short-term pain it might cause.

• Pandering to them is also likely to seal the GOP's loss in 2024 (though it would be less dramatic of one), plus it will keep the party in the mode of pandering to fascists (you may think I am being overdramatic, but that is basically what they are: reactionaries who are willing to blow up democracy and rule of law to get their way) for longer, thus continuing to push moderates away and sealing yet MORE losses in the future.

Basically, in the name of getting a few extra marginal votes and seats in Congress in what will probably be a GOP loss in 2024, the GOP is paying for that by ensuring yet more losses down the line.

The time may soon be here to create a responsible, pro-democracy, center-right party. The Republic existed before either of the two current major parties existed, and it can exist afterwards; in fact, a responsible conservative party that does not pander to extremists will be far better for the Republic than what we see in today’s GOP.

(And being a lefty, I will still complain about this new party and call them names. Of course I will. And members of it will return the favor. Welcome to politics. But in no way will they represent the sort of moral rot today’s GOP does. It will be a distinctly better political dynamic.)

[Rubus Leucodermis]

20 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

I can't find a good spot to put this, but I-95 in Philadelphia is completely closed because a bridge collapsed from a vehicle fire, the fire must be very intense for something like this to happen.

The heat from an extreme fire can be hot enough to reverse the chemical reactions that take place when cement hardens as concrete sets. The resulting mixture then crumbles, because it no longer has any structural strength.