Polite Politics

[Anti Marine Layer]

Where did Canary Singlepane Progress Tracking forum go?

[roadtonowhere08]

1 minute ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Where did Canary Singlepane Progress Tracking forum go?

Miss making those progress bars and starting random threads? 

[Deweydog]

17 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Care to share any here?

Nope. They’re not my stories to tell, but let’s just say his Wikipedia page from his King County dayz in particular is quite sanitized, although that isn’t exactly a major revelation. The stories though aren’t mine to tell.

Not trying to be a ****, and also not trying to change anyone’s mind. Chances are he’ll win rather decisively next November unless the GOP wises up and finds an intelligent moderate. Assuming Ferguson runs as an Inslee version 2.0, he’ll be vulnerable.

[Andie]

18 hours ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

It's insane to me, as a long time Republican... I know so many people who are Republicans or lean that way, that will not vote for Trump in 2024, they will either vote for Biden or sit out.

I can’t believe they don’t seem interested in proposing a rational alternative.  The extreme polarity of this country is the problem not the solution. 

[SnarkyGoblin]

The fox news rage machine has nothing to do with race. /s

https://wapo.st/3HvHCKP

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Quote

Not only do Americans not care about the various Republican obsessions — in a recent Fox News poll 1 percent of respondents said “wokeness” was “the most important issue facing the country today” — but a large majority say that those obsessions have gone too far. According to Fox, 60 percent of Americans said “book banning by school boards” was a major problem. Fifty-seven percent said the same for political attacks on families with transgender children.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/opinion/ron-desantis-woke-mind-virus.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[Andie]

I'm concerned about the politicization of so much in our schools. 

Many many students graduate with science/math and reading skills that can not compete in the US marketplace much less compete with Asia.  We need to focus on academics.  Yes, socialization and psychological health are important, but D**n!  Look at their skills.

[Anti Marine Layer]

3 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/opinion/ron-desantis-woke-mind-virus.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Did not get the free version from that link, but what are the Republican and Democrat percentages for the 60 and 57 percent and which books are they complaining about being banned?

 

[roadtonowhere08]

28 minutes ago, Andie said:

I'm concerned about the politicization of so much in our schools. 

Many many students graduate with science/math and reading skills that can not compete in the US marketplace much less compete with Asia.  We need to focus on academics.  Yes, socialization and psychological health are important, but D**n!  Look at their skills.

Get rid of social media.  Problem solved.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Pretty good article about how things are in San Francisco:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/03/politics/san-francisco-crime-rate-what-matters/index.html

TL;DR:  Violent crime down and property crime way up.  Everything expensive.  Gavin plays politics with honest drug reform.  Homelessness numbers seemingly static.

"Some things are better, and some things are worse. People who tell you differently are seeing things through blinders, frankly."

[Andie]

10 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Get rid of social media.  Problem solved.

 

Good luck

[Andie]

Apparently the government could run out of money June 1st.  
Yeah, let’s just print more. Can you say, “Inflation?”  Seems the only qualification needed for working in DC is a complete lack of knowledge regarding living within your means.  

Well, the plebeians protest!

[Anti Marine Layer]

17 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/opinion/ron-desantis-woke-mind-virus.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Female transgender athletes competing
in women’s sports - 54% said it was a major problem

[Rubus Leucodermis]

10 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Pretty good article about how things are in San Francisco:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/03/politics/san-francisco-crime-rate-what-matters/index.html

TL;DR:  Violent crime down and property crime way up.  Everything expensive.  Gavin plays politics with honest drug reform.  Homelessness numbers seemingly static.

"Some things are better, and some things are worse. People who tell you differently are seeing things through blinders, frankly."

Similar to Vancouver, BC. There definitely are problems with inequality, homelessness, and petty crime here, but it’s still overall a great place to live IMO. It’s hardly the post-apocalyptic urban dystopia so much of the rhetoric of rural conservatives tries to paint it as.

And one of the biggest battles facing the housing crisis are the same middle-class NIMBY types (who can’t stand the visible homelessness) whose opposition to creating more density and housing in their own neighbourhoods helps create the housing shortage in the first place.

Or, for that matter, Portland. Was there last month, and again, it was light years from the hellscape that Fox News and other right-wing sources sometimes portray it as. There was more graffiti and homeless tents than there had been five years ago, and that’s cause for concern, but I still had a great time visiting friends and going to Saturday Market and I was not continually in fear of becoming a crime victim.

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Andie said:

Good luck

Hence the brevity of the post.  We are way to far down that rabbit hole.  I guess parents are going to have to actually parent and kids are going to have to stop being little addicts.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

2 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Hence the brevity of the post.  We are way to far down that rabbit hole.  I guess parents are going to have to actually parent and kids are going to have to stop being little addicts.

Adults are going to have to stop being addicts as well.

[roadtonowhere08]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Similar to Vancouver, BC. There definitely are problems with inequality, homelessness, and petty crime here, but it’s still overall a great place to live IMO. It’s hardly the post-apocalyptic urban dystopia so much of the rhetoric of rural conservatives tries to paint it at.

And one of the biggest battles facing the housing crisis are the same middle-class NIMBY types (who can’t stand the visible homelessness) whose opposition to creating more density and housing in their own neighbourhoods helps create the housing shortage in the first place.

Or, for that matter, Portland. Was there last month, and again, it was light years from the hellscape that Fox News and other right-wing sources sometimes portray it as. There was more graffiti and homeless tents than there had been five years ago, and that’s cause for concern, but I still had a great time visiting friends and going to Saturday Market and I was not continually in fear of becoming a crime victim.

I never feared for my safety in San Francisco when my family went for a couple days last summer.  Very few homeless people compared to LA.  I would never live there because I detest big city life, but compared to LA it is a slice of heaven.

[roadtonowhere08]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Adults are going to have to stop being addicts as well.

My mentioning kid was in response to Andie's talking about mental health in schools, but very true.  They are just as bad.

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

I never feared for my safety in San Francisco but compared to LA it is a slice of heaven.

Except for the weather (2023 excluded) San Francisco is better than LA, but there would be lots of happy Jesses in San Francisco enjoying the Fogust, which would be heavenly to them. 

[SnarkyGoblin]

3 hours ago, Andie said:

Apparently the government could run out of money June 1st.  
Yeah, let’s just print more. Can you say, “Inflation?”  Seems the only qualification needed for working in DC is a complete lack of knowledge regarding living within your means.  

Well, the plebeians protest!

That's monetary policy.  The looming debt ceiling is fiscal policy.

Different groups of people are deciding those things.

[Andie]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

My mentioning kid was in response to Andie's talking about mental health in schools, but very true.  They are just as bad.

It seems the “washing machine” is out of balance.   
Parents aren’t parenting expecting the should. 
Schools…we’ll I just don’t get it.  
Kids are rearing themselves a lot of time and missing out on both foundational experience with people in leadership and potentially good relationships with parents.  
To be critical however, many parents are dropping the ball. Absentee, spoiled themselves or career obsessed, they harm those they profess to love more than life.  
its a mess. 
I feel so privileged to have the parents I had.  

[Rubus Leucodermis]

17 minutes ago, Andie said:

I feel so privileged to have the parents I had.  

You probably are. (I am.)

 

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Except for the weather (2023 excluded) San Francisco is better than LA, but there would be lots of happy Jesses in San Francisco enjoying the Fogust, which would be heavenly to them. 

Mmmmm, fog 

[Anti Marine Layer]

7 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

You probably are. (I am.)

 

1. Sad video, but at least they didn't say "Take 2 steps forward if you're white, take 2 steps forward if you're a male, take 2 steps forward if you're a heterosexual, take 2 steps forward if you're cisgender"

2. Also they talked about 2 parent families as being a privilege, but the founders of BLM explicitly said they are against the nuclear family as a norm

3. Among Blacks there's a lower percentage of 2-parent families today than there was during legalized segregation and restrictions on marriage. Whites also have a lower percentage of 2-parent families today.

4. The Bible verse at the end is about charitable giving and applies to individuals. It does not call for government mandated redistribution of wealth

 

 

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

52 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

1. Sad video, but at least they didn't say "Take 2 steps forward if you're white, take 2 steps forward if you're a male, take 2 steps forward if you're a heterosexual, take 2 steps forward if you're cisgender"

You think those are not advantages in our society?

[Anti Marine Layer]

20 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

You think those are not advantages in our society?

There's some poor white people and rich black people. Generally, however, white people have advantages over black people. It's not unique to America though.

Even if we could have equality of outcome in terms of wealth, there's still tall people and short people, weak people and strong people, blind people and people with sight, people who get sick easily and people who rarely get sick, people with mental illness and people who always seem to be happy, people who love the climate where they live and people who hate it, etc. How would we get rid of those inequalities? 

Also the left believes people are generally good and all problems are caused by outside factors such as capitalism and that we must change society. The right believes people are not generally good and that's the main reason there's so much injustice in the world and that people must be improved as individuals. 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

11 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

There's some poor white people and rich black people. Generally, however, white people have advantages over black people. It's not unique to America though.

Exactly, so "take two steps forward if you are White" would actually have some truth to it, like it or not.

Quote

Even if we could have equality of outcome in terms of wealth, there's still tall people and short people, weak people and strong people, blind people and people with sight, people who get sick easily and people who rarely get sick, people with mental illness and people who always seem to be happy, people who love the climate where they live and people who hate it, etc. How would we get rid of those inequalities?

As much as practical, with techniques that vary depending on the (unearned) inequality and the circumstance.

Quote

Also the left believes people are generally good and all problems are caused by outside factors such as capitalism and that we must change society. The right believes people are not generally good and that's the main reason there's so much injustice in the world and that people must be improved as individuals. 

Strawman alert! I run in pretty lefty circles and I have yet to meet anyone who seriously believes that all problems (presumably problems achieving some measure of success) are caused by external factors. Just that no small measure of them are, and that capitalism is hardly the meritocracy its propaganda proclaims it to be.

[roadtonowhere08]

Let's keep in mind that the U.S. economy is not capitalism.  It is a corporate welfare state.  Trickle up economics if you prefer.

Large corporation during COVID?  Here's a pile of money.  Do what you want with it.

Small family business during COVID?  Kill yourself.

[Anti Marine Layer]

3 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Exactly, so "take two steps forward if you are White" would actually have some truth to it, like it or not.

Not if the only two contestants were Oprah Winfrey and a homeless white man living on the streets in Los Angeles. If we are to focus all our efforts on poor Black women just because they have more intersectionality points, we'd be ignoring the poor white males.

3 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Strawman alert! I run in pretty lefty circles and I have yet to meet anyone who seriously believes that all problems (presumably problems achieving some measure of success) are caused by external factors. Just that no small measure of them are, and that capitalism is hardly the meritocracy its propaganda proclaims it to be.

Maybe I should have said most problems. I don't want to bring up the "M" word again, but there was one famous guy who said if were we to transition from capitalism to socialism to communism, all greed and selfishness would disappear and everyone would be happy and share everything.

But back to the whole equality vs equity thing

Most people on the left would prefer equity, some even if we had to violate equality under the law to achieve it. In fact, most people on the right would probably prefer equity as well, but conservatives don't believe in "stealing from the rich to give to the poor", and they also don't believe true equity is possible.

Or as one guy says "What the short man needs is to develop skills, find a useful vocation, and buy a ticket to the ball game. If he needs help (counseling, education, job skills, etc.), your organization and others like it provide services that can change his life. Getting him another box will not."

He also says "The equity cartoon envisions a world in which all heads are at the same height, a metaphor for communist-style redistribution of wealth. Communism levels wealth, but saps the human spirit and makes everyone downtrodden. Society, from top to bottom, lives a lie"

Finally he says that equity violates the Constitution (equality under the law) as well as human nature (people value dignity, honor and respect) and is not doable (also partially due to human nature) and instead we should strive for excellence.

https://www.allsides.com/blog/equity-vs-equality-political-rorschach-test

[roadtonowhere08]

2 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Most people on the left would prefer equity...

But nobody with a brain actually believes that equity is attainable, so it is all a moot point regardless if your made up stat is accurate or not.

"Conservatives don't believe in 'stealing from the rich to give to the poor.'"  Perhaps not, but they sure like stealing from the middle class to give to the rich.

[smerfylicious]

5 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Not if the only two contestants were Oprah Winfrey and a homeless white man living on the streets in Los Angeles. If we are to focus all our efforts on poor Black women just because they have more intersectionality points, we'd be ignoring the poor white males.

Maybe I should have said most problems. I don't want to bring up the "M" word again, but there was one famous guy who said if were we to transition from capitalism to socialism to communism, all greed and selfishness would disappear and everyone would be happy and share everything.

But back to the whole equality vs equity thing

Most people on the left would prefer equity, some even if we had to violate equality under the law to achieve it. In fact, most people on the right would probably prefer equity as well, but conservatives don't believe in "stealing from the rich to give to the poor", and they also don't believe true equity is possible.

Or as one guy says "What the short man needs is to develop skills, find a useful vocation, and buy a ticket to the ball game. If he needs help (counseling, education, job skills, etc.), your organization and others like it provide services that can change his life. Getting him another box will not."

He also says "The equity cartoon envisions a world in which all heads are at the same height, a metaphor for communist-style redistribution of wealth. Communism levels wealth, but saps the human spirit and makes everyone downtrodden. Society, from top to bottom, lives a lie"

Finally he says that equity violates the Constitution (equality under the law) as well as human nature (people value dignity, honor and respect) and is not doable (also partially due to human nature) and instead we should strive for excellence.

https://www.allsides.com/blog/equity-vs-equality-political-rorschach-test

 

True equity is not possible without a totalitarian government. 

True equity is not found in nature, and there's no equality of outcome without the suppression of people's inherent differences. Whether that be intelligence, conscientiousness, drive or any other myriad of factors that go into people's desire to succeed. 

It's almost like everyone forgot what happened in the 20th century. We've run this experiment about a dozen times, and all we have to show for it is nuclear proliferation and about 100 million dead bodies.

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

3 hours ago, smerfylicious said:

True equity is not possible without a totalitarian government. 

True equity is not found in nature, and there's no equality of outcome without the suppression of people's inherent differences. Whether that be intelligence, conscientiousness, drive or any other myriad of factors that go into people's desire to succeed. 

It's almost like everyone forgot what happened in the 20th century. We've run this experiment about a dozen times, and all we have to show for it is nuclear proliferation and about 100 million dead bodies.

I cannot see how equity is possible WITH a totalitarian government, the very definition of which implies that the vast majority of individuals have no political power whatsoever while a tiny privileged inner circle have all of it.

Nobody is talking about absolute equality where all individuals are absolutely identical. That is a strawman.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

12 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Let's keep in mind that the U.S. economy is not capitalism.  It is a corporate welfare state.  Trickle up economics if you prefer.

Large corporation during COVID?  Here's a pile of money.  Do what you want with it.

Small family business during COVID?  Kill yourself.

You can say that, but it is also possible to say that the USSR was not socialism or communism, but a totalitarian dictatorship that practiced a form of degenerate monopoly capitalism, in which a Communist Party controlled by a tiny inner circle controlled the entire economy (except for a black market which they tried to suppress).

It’s mainly an argument over rhetoric. I generally classify such societies as forms of left or socialist authoritarianism, because that jibes better with the terminology most use (and there were differences between them and right-wing, authoritarian systems, so it seems reasonable to use terminology that provides something of a contrast in this regard).

Likewise, I consider it fair to label the U.S. as a capitalist economy. So it deviates from ideal capitalism, so what? Ideal anything does not exist in the real world.

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

You can say that, but it is also possible to say that the USSR was not socialism or communism, but a totalitarian dictatorship that practiced a form of degenerate monopoly capitalism, in which a Communist Party controlled by a tiny inner circle controlled the entire economy (except for a black market which they tried to suppress).

It’s mainly an argument over rhetoric. I generally classify such societies as forms of left or socialist authoritarianism, because that jibes better with the terminology most use (and there were differences between them and right-wing, authoritarian systems, so it seems reasonable to use terminology that provides something of a contrast in this regard).

Likewise, I consider it fair to label the U.S. as a capitalist economy. So it deviates from ideal capitalism, so what? Ideal anything does not exist in the real world.

Got up on the wrong side of the bed? 

Sometimes I get tired of the word capitalism used so freely when there are some serious exceptions to that label being used, especially when it pertains to the topic of equality and equity.

I am sure someone of your political persuasion can appreciate such distinctions being made.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

47 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Got up on the wrong side of the bed? 

Sometimes I get tired of the word capitalism used so freely when there are some serious exceptions to that label being used, especially when it pertains to the topic of equality and equity.

I am sure someone of your political persuasion can appreciate such distinctions being made.

Denying that the USA has a capitalist economy is mostly an exercise in rhetoric. Now, this is a politics discussion subthread, so political rhetoric is only to be expected, but still, that is what it is. Words have meaning, and the generally accepted meaning of “capitalism” encompasses the economic system currently prevailing in the USA.

Likewise, it is actually a commonly-used bit of rhetoric on the anti-Soviet radical left to consider the ex-USSR to have been “state capitalist” instead of “socialist” or “communist,” for pretty much the reasons I outlined in the post to which you are responding, even though the generally accepted meaning of “socialism” does encompass the economic system that prevailed there.

[roadtonowhere08]

53 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Denying that the USA has a capitalist economy is mostly an exercise in rhetoric. Now, this is a politics discussion subthread, so political rhetoric is only to be expected, but still, that is what it is. Words have meaning, and the generally accepted meaning of “capitalism” encompasses the economic system currently prevailing in the USA.

Likewise, it is actually a commonly-used bit of rhetoric on the anti-Soviet radical left to consider the ex-USSR to have been “state capitalist” instead of “socialist” or “communist,” for pretty much the reasons I outlined in the post to which you are responding, even though the generally accepted meaning of “socialism” does encompass the economic system that prevailed there.

You're totally pulling a Marine Layer.  I was being hyperbolic initially.  I know that the U.S. is "capitalistic".  It's just not as capitalistic as some like to think.

Happy now, Mr. Pedantic?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

4 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

You're totally pulling a Marine Layer.  I was being hyperbolic initially.  I know that the U.S. is "capitalistic".  It's just not as capitalistic as some like to think.

Happy now, Mr. Pedantic?

I think someone just might have been projecting a teensy weensy bit when they accused me earlier of having gotten up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

[roadtonowhere08]

6 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

I think someone just might have been projecting a teensy weensy bit when they accused me earlier of having gotten up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Nah, never. 

[SnarkyGoblin]

NYTimes Article

I guess going after how people want to live isn't enough to win over the cult that has become the GOP.

Quote

To some, he is “Ron DeSoros,” a puppet of the Democratic megadonor George Soros. To others, he is “Ron DeSatan,” a vaccine-supporting evildoer. And to still others, he is “Ron DePLANTis,” a “plant” of the so-called Deep State.

As the governor of Florida — real name Ron DeSantis — explores a bid for the Republican presidential nomination, he has made overtures to supporters of former President Donald J. Trump. But he is finding that the conspiracy theories and outlandish attacks that Mr. Trump and his allies have aimed at rivals for years are coming for him as well.

The attacks often nod to one of the many unfounded conspiracy theories floating around in far-right circles: election fraud, vaccine dangers, Mr. Soros and even QAnon, the online conspiracy movement that believes, among other things, in the existence of a fictional cult that preys on children.

The attacks underscore the power that conspiracy theories continue to hold over Republican politics heading into the 2024 presidential election. To win the party’s nomination, Mr. DeSantis would probably need support from a Republican base that has produced many of the attacks against him. And while Mr. DeSantis enjoys broad support among Republicans, soaring to re-election victory just six months ago, the latest primary polls show Mr. Trump gaining a sizable lead.

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

58 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

NYTimes Article

I guess going after how people want to live isn't enough to win over the cult that has become the GOP.

DeSantis is not Trump, and that is itself enough to doom his chances with the Trump cult. Policy is irrelevant; they want their god-king and nobody else.