Middle East Conflict of 2023

[Andie]

13 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Evidence that Hamas is doing "Collective Punishment" by hiding weapons inside schools.

 

One of the oldest tricks in warfare’s book.  
If your opponent has a conscience, by all means turn it on them.  Really effective.  
Howevr, some of the “greats” ignored it in history.  Alexander the Great for one.  The Middle East doesn’t share our values but they do use them against us to great effect.  

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Andie said:

One of the oldest tricks in warfare’s book.  
If your opponent has a conscience, by all means turn it on them.  Really effective.  
Howevr, some of the “greats” ignored it in history.  Alexander the Great for one.  The Middle East doesn’t share our values but they do use them against us to great effect.  

Please expand upon this thought.  Are you referring to Middle Eastern governments, the civilians, or both.  And what values are you referring to?

[Anti Marine Layer]

Good analogy of the Hamas terrorists and the people who are cheering them on.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/19/news/gang-of-violent-monkeys-kill-10-year-old-boy-in-india/

[Iceresistance]

Now they are using the same tactics as "Just Stop Oil" and other Environmental Terrorists are doing?

 

WATCH: Pro-Palestinian protester storms field at cricket World Cup final (msn.com)

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Now they are using the same tactics as "Just Stop Oil" and other Environmental Terrorists are doing?

 

WATCH: Pro-Palestinian protester storms field at cricket World Cup final (msn.com)

That's not terrorism, that's a disruptive protest tactic.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

 

[Andie]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:01 PM, roadtonowhere08 said:

Please expand upon this thought.  Are you referring to Middle Eastern governments, the civilians, or both.  And what values are you referring to?

My best reference over the years is observing the governments. Those I’ve known individually from the ME were always very thoughtful and caring family people but that’s a handful of people.  
The governments seem so out of sync with their people in general. 

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

 

Great post.  Great letter. 

Nobody really cares about the Palestinians.  Full stop.  And the reason why is that they are generally poor and have little money mostly due to obvious external factors.  If they did, they would have their own sovereign state by now.  All sides have blood on their hands for treating the Palestinians like either aliens in their own lands (Israelis) or political pawns (The West and most Arab governments).  Only Jordan, Syria, and Egypt have taken in large numbers of Palestinians in their countries, and even then they are not allowed citizenship (to the best of my knowledge).

2 hours ago, Andie said:

My best reference over the years is observing the governments. Those I’ve known individually from the ME were always very thoughtful and caring family people but that’s a handful of people.  
The governments seem so out of sync with their people in general. 

Gotcha.  Yes most of the governments are out of sync with their populations to varying degrees based on the country.  Iran is a great example.  The population is generally young and increasingly moderate.  They are really no different than us.  One would not guess that based on the government.  The funny part of all that is..... the U.S. and the Brits are the ones to blame for that.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/30/the-united-states-overthrew-irans-last-democratic-leader/

Finally, based most polls, our government is also very much out of sync with our values as well.  Of course we all know that already.

[roadtonowhere08]

Israel did not enter Gaza to hand it over to the Palestinian Authority, Netanyahu says

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-773964#773964

"Blah, blah, blah, eventually this land will be ours, but until then, we will keep "mowing the grass" to prevent a Palestinian state." 

[SnarkyGoblin]

13 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

 

"I won't die in silence so that you can live drunk on my blood"

Sounds like @SilverFallsAndrewmight need to read this.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

11 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Nobody really cares about the Palestinians.  Full stop.  And the reason why is that they are generally poor and have little money mostly due to obvious external factors.  If they did, they would have their own sovereign state by now.  All sides have blood on their hands for treating the Palestinians like either aliens in their own lands (Israelis) or political pawns (The West and most Arab governments).  Only Jordan, Syria, and Egypt have taken in large numbers of Palestinians in their countries, and even then they are not allowed citizenship (to the best of my knowledge).

I became aware of this in my college years, when I once struck up a conversation with a Palestinian exchange student. His family were refugees that had resettled in Kuwait. I expected to hear praises of Arab solidarity. Instead, I heard stories of how Kuwait discriminated against and oppressed its Palestinian population.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

5 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

"I won't die in silence so that you can live drunk on my blood"

Sounds like @SilverFallsAndrewmight need to read this.

Sorry, what did I miss? I'll read this thing I need to read. 

Okay, I read it. Sure wouldn't want to be that poor soul. 

Edited November 20 by SilverFallsAndrew

[Iceresistance]

I really hope that is fake

Hamas used food aid sacks to smuggle bullets into Gaza, claims Israel (msn.com)

[Iceresistance]

Why Has the Left Sided With Hamas? Antisemites Are Recasting Themselves as Victims | Opinion (msn.com)

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Why Has the Left Sided With Hamas? Antisemites Are Recasting Themselves as Victims | Opinion (msn.com)

Only the idiots on the left side with Hamas.  The smart ones are wising up to the fact that Israel is not the massive victim it would like everyone to believe and are denouncing anyone who cause innocents to suffer with an objective lens.

[Iceresistance]

On 11/21/2023 at 2:05 PM, roadtonowhere08 said:

Only the idiots on the left side with Hamas.  The smart ones are wising up to the fact that Israel is not the massive victim it would like everyone to believe and are denouncing anyone who cause innocents to suffer with an objective lens.

Unfortunately, Hamas invaded Israel with one intent: To wipe out the Israelis.

Israel had to respond without looking weak, and if it was a weak response, Hamas gets bolder.

This kind of response? Hamas plays the victim card and will do anything to try to force Israel to commit war crimes, then use that to claim that Israel is the absolute aggressor and wants to do ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. 

In reality? Hamas tried that on the Israelis. Israel may have not started this, but they will finish it with the annihilation of Hamas and ending Hamas' exploitation of their civilians and hospitals. (Hamas is exploiting civilians by making them human shields, stealing basic necessities to fuel their war machine, and not letting them leave. They are also exploiting hospitals by setting up their bases of operation or ammo depots either at or very close to them, plus schools. They know EXACTLY where to set up stuff so they can hope to force Israel to commit war crimes.)

[roadtonowhere08]

37 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Unfortunately, Hamas invaded Israel with one intent: To wipe out the Israelis.

Israel had to respond without looking weak, and if it was a weak response, Hamas gets bolder.

This kind of response? Hamas plays the victim card and will do anything to try to force Israel to commit war crimes, then use that to claim that Israel is the absolute aggressor and wants to do ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. 

In reality? Hamas tried that on the Israelis. Israel may have not started this, but they will finish it with the annihilation of Hamas and ending Hamas' exploitation of their civilians and hospitals. (Hamas is exploiting civilians by making them human shields, stealing basic necessities for to fuel their war machine, and not letting them leave. They are also exploiting hospitals by setting up their bases of operation or ammo depots either at or very close to them, plus schools. They know EXACTLY where to set up stuff so they can hope to force Israel to commit war crimes.)

Yes, but all of this was extremely predictable.  It all points to one thing: Trying to divide Palestinians and prevent them having a sovereign state does not, and will not work.  Ever.  That's all on Israel.  Who do you think allowed Hamas to come to power?  Israel funded them FFS!  You think everyday Palestinians want these whackjobs?  Israel wants them to be driven into Hamas' arms so they can say, "SEE?  This is why they cannot have their own state!"  It's all a strategy on Israel's part.  Bibi has admitted this!  It's a great plan if you want to expand your territory without much blowback.  Unfortunately, lots of people are waking up to this fact and are seeing it for what it is.  Rational people have always been against religious fundamentalism, but now they are seeing the other side for a change.

All of the other aspects of this crisis have been debated ad nauseum. 

Both sides are guilty, but only one side is backed (and for all intents and purposes propped up) by the most powerful entity in the world and plays with a very much stacked deck and rules in its favor.

The rest of this thread gives all the context and details of my stance.

[Iceresistance]

23 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Yes, but all of this was extremely predictable.  It all points to one thing: Trying to divide Palestinians and prevent them having a sovereign state does not, and will not work.  Ever.  That's all on Israel.  Who do you think allowed Hamas to come to power?  Israel funded them FFS!  You think everyday Palestinians want these whackjobs?  Israel wants them to be driven into Hamas' arms so they can say, "SEE?  This is why they cannot have their own state!"  It's all a strategy on Israel's part.  Bibi has admitted this!  It's a great plan if you want to expand your territory without much blowback.  Unfortunately, lots of people are waking up to this fact and are seeing it for what it is.  Rational people have always been against religious fundamentalism, but now they are seeing the other side for a change.

All of the other aspects of this crisis have been debated ad nauseum. 

Both sides are guilty, but only one side is backed (and for all intents and purposes propped up) by the most powerful entity in the world and plays with a very much stacked deck and rules in its favor.

The rest of this thread gives all the context and details of my stance.

I really hope that Israel allows them to have a sovereign state after all of this. Hamas got richer and the citizens got poorer, it was only a matter of time before tensions would rise...

[roadtonowhere08]

4 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

I really hope that Israel allows them to have a sovereign state after all of this. Hamas got richer and the citizens got poorer, it was only a matter of time before tensions would rise...

Me too, but I am not holding my breath.

[Iceresistance]

22 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Me too, but I am not holding my breath.

There is already a lot of chatter on the media about "The Day After Israeli Takeover of Gaza" or something like that.

[Andie]

11 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Me too, but I am not holding my breath.

Have to agree with that but should it happen, will peace break out?  
The real fly in the ointment, currently, is Hamas but how do you eliminate that without harming innocents?  And once tamped out, will it remain peaceful?  
This conflict has been ongoing since Moses entered the Promise Land. 
Is peace possible at all?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

I think that expecting peace to break out suddenly is unrealistic.

What needs to be done is structure things so that the natural path of least resistance is de-escalation. There will inevitably be future cycles of violence, but at least get things so they are decreasing in intensity over time.

An Israeli occupation of Gaza, particularly an indefinite one, will achieve precisely the opposite.

[SnarkyGoblin]

This @sshole actually got arrested.  Hope he's fined/jailed the mosti the law allows 

f*cking bigot

https://twitter.com/itslaylas/status/1726986614591885484/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1726986614591885484&currentTweetUser=itslaylas

apparently he was one of Obama's national security advisors.

[roadtonowhere08]

44 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

This @sshole actually got arrested.  Hope he's fined/jailed the mosti the law allows 

f*cking bigot

https://twitter.com/itslaylas/status/1726986614591885484/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1726986614591885484&currentTweetUser=itslaylas

apparently he was one of Obama's national security advisors.

Page not found.  What was it about?

Edit:  Ah, probably this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67492512

Classy guy 

[SnarkyGoblin]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Page not found.  What was it about?

Edit:  Ah, probably this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67492512

Classy guy 

Indeed it was that.  Link was of the videos.

[roadtonowhere08]

37 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Indeed it was that.  Link was of the videos.

The BBC article did not include the good stuff.  What a piece of shite.  That stupid, smug smile on his face.  Ugh!

[roadtonowhere08]

For those of you who rage against cancel culture:

Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

This is not a good look for an industry long claimed of being controlled by Jews.  I could care less if it is or not, but we all know many hold that view.  Hollywood has no idea that Gen Z is not your typical generation.  They are extremely politically active, and this will backfire.  Every successive generation is more aware of the world around them.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

5 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

For those of you who rage against cancel culture:

Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

This is not a good look for an industry long claimed of being controlled by Jews.  I could care less if it is or not, but we all know many hold that view.  Hollywood has no idea that Gen Z is not your typical generation.  They are extremely politically active, and this will backfire.  Every successive generation is more aware of the world around them.

You are right, we should be concerned with Gen Z, the most ignorant generation of all time. Most recently a bunch of Gen Z morons got caught praising Bin Laden. But I have met many Gen Zers who understand wokeness is a road to ruin. You won't find these Gen Z folks on tiktok, they are more likely to be working or engaged in commerce. 

Edited November 23 by SilverFallsAndrew

[Iceresistance]

1 minute ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

You are right, we should be concerned with Gen Z, the most ignorant generation of all time. 

And generation Alpha

Generation Z is also the most intolerant

[Iceresistance]

He deserved it! But the group thinks he's allowed to get away with EVERYTHING!

NYC Palestinian man sentenced in brutal antisemitic beating before judge ejects angry supporters from court (msn.com)

[Anti Marine Layer]

https://x.com/guypbenson/status/1727723964728750252?s=20

[Iceresistance]

1 hour ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

https://x.com/guypbenson/status/1727723964728750252?s=20

Also this
Palestinian Flag on Macy's Thanksgiving Parade Float Sparks Outrage (msn.com)

[Iceresistance]

Oh this is bad...

 

A Jewish teacher had to hide in a locked office as students stormed the halls demanding she be fired for attending a pro-Israel rally, say reports (msn.com)

[Iceresistance]

Dang

‘Not A Single Cent’: Germany Joins European Union in Pulling Funding for U.N. Palestinian Aid Group (msn.com)

[Iceresistance]

She is not going to last long (In congress for the seat, and it's not a threat, okay?) for her seat if she keeps going like this

Rep Tlaib's links to Hamas group held liable for death of American Jew (msn.com)

[Iceresistance]

BRUH

U.N. Women Retracts Statement Condemning Hamas Attacks on Israel (msn.com)

[Iceresistance]

I am starting to become convinced that the UN has become Pro-Hamas

The UN's silence on the rape of Israeli women makes a mockery of its campaign against violence (msn.com)

[Deweydog]

Holy sh*t!!!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/subway-is-adding-a-footlong-cookie-to-its-menu-and-you-can-try-it-for-free/ar-AA1kK0ik?cvid=c59ebdac287f4e5a8af421fd10c29af5&ei=9

[Iceresistance]

Did you post the wrong thing here?

4 minutes ago, Deweydog said:

Holy sh*t!!!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/subway-is-adding-a-footlong-cookie-to-its-menu-and-you-can-try-it-for-free/ar-AA1kK0ik?cvid=c59ebdac287f4e5a8af421fd10c29af5&ei=9

 

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Did you post the wrong thing here?

 

[Iceresistance]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Never intended for mocking, I was just asking a legitimate question

[roadtonowhere08]

22 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Never intended for mocking, I was just asking a legitimate question

I gotta spell it out, don't I?

Dewey's post was a critique of your barrage of robotic reposts of MSN ripoffs with almost no substance on your part.  It gets a bit old.  More thoughts and less reposts.

[Andie]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:01 PM, roadtonowhere08 said:

Please expand upon this thought.  Are you referring to Middle Eastern governments, the civilians, or both.  And what values are you referring to?

Hamas does not share the values of the west. The US, for example, does not use women and children as shields.  

[Iceresistance]

9 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

I gotta spell it out, don't I?

Dewey's post was a critique of your barrage of robotic reposts of MSN ripoffs with almost no substance on your part.  It gets a bit old.  More thoughts and less reposts.

Dewey's post was OT to the topic, and I try to stay on topic for this.

[SnarkyGoblin]

Guess the Pope is an antisemite, too.

https://wapo.st/3T4CMLf

[roadtonowhere08]

11 hours ago, Andie said:

Hamas does not share the values of the west. The US, for example, does not use women and children as shields.  

Hamas does not share the values of Islam.  They bastardize religion for their own gain.

Also, the U.S. is more than happy to kill thousands of civilians or let it's own young men and women die in wars that only benefit the wealthy.  Or let homeless people rot in the streets because we are too cheap to fund mental/drug health programs.  Or underpay immigrants in horrific conditions for cheap products.  Or allow people to lose everything due to a health emergency.

And let's not forget that Henry Kissinger (R.I.H.) was never tried for the deaths of millions.

The U.S. is in no position to talk about morals.

[Iceresistance]

(War related though)

It looks like that Ukraine is better at making fakes than Russia

The Russians Just Blew Up A Hard-To-Replace Ukrainian Attack Jet. Too Bad For Them, It Was A Fake. (msn.com)

[Andie]

24 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Hamas does not share the values of Islam.  They bastardize religion for their own gain.

Also, the U.S. is more than happy to kill thousands of civilians or let it's own young men and women die in wars that only benefit the wealthy.  Or let homeless people rot in the streets because we are too cheap to fund mental/drug health programs.  Or underpay immigrants in horrific conditions for cheap products.  Or allow people to lose everything due to a health emergency.

And let's not forget that Henry Kissinger (R.I.H.) was never tried for the deaths of millions.

The U.S. is in no position to talk about morals.

Go all the way back to America’s discovery and founding and you’ll find profit.  Can probably be said of any nation going back as far as possible.   
 

[roadtonowhere08]

6 hours ago, Andie said:

Go all the way back to America’s discovery and founding and you’ll find profit.  Can probably be said of any nation going back as far as possible.   
 

For sure. 

I just wince sometimes when America (or the collective "West") is held on some pedestal like we are objectively superior to everyone else in the world when that view forgets to mention (or chooses to ignore) the fact that the "West" has been the causes of some pretty awful events since our inception.  We may have a lot more going for us than some place like Syria or Iran, but our body count is considerably higher as well.  There is a reason why lots of people overseas hate Western countries.  It's not like the hate wasn't earned in many respects.

It is in that area where I think Trump gets a lot right.  By being the world police, we get our way much of the time.  It has brought us immense wealth and prosperity, but it has also caused a lot of pain around the world due to selfish pursuits in the name of "American interests".  It's time we cede some of that and take a more passive (and less overbearing) role in the world.

And if that means we decline a bit on the world stage to focus on our Rome burning, well, so be it.

Having said all that, I'll now quote hawkstwelve:

"Oh, who am I kidding? Nothing will change."

[Andie]

I’ve traveled a lot overseas.  The only place I had any issue of welcome was from one Englishman and his wife.  Never understood their problem.  
However, things have gone sour overseas in general.

Most people I met would take their worst day in this country over any other.  When things go bad overseas clearing it up is twice as hard to straighten out.  That’s why I stick to US trips now. And even then I’m careful.  Life has become far too difficult overall.  I’d rather stay home and make nice day trips and have a lovely lunch. Then sleep in my own bed.