Stacsh Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Beltrami Island said: Waiting to see an improved pattern emerge 10 days out in the models before the bad pattern has even taken full effect is the worst part of following weather and weather models. These times make me wish I was blissfully unaware like most people. The next 7-10 days is pretty set in stone across much of Plains, Midwest and Great Lakes from all the models. It's time to look long term, even just for fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzcoat Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 57 minutes ago, Beltrami Island said: Waiting to see an improved pattern emerge 10 days out in the models before the bad pattern has even taken full effect is the worst part of following weather and weather models. These times make me wish I was blissfully unaware like most people. yep. Gotta let the teleconnections take affect. Even if the forecasted -AO etc DO happen, it will take many days for it to take merit. Folks- we've been through this SAME thing the past several years with a late start to winter (or has what is said on this forum)-- Time after time ( year after year) expecting different results with same input (mild air/ no moisture, or if wet= rain ) - takes time to resolve. Keep the Faith- but it's not happening in the next 10-12 days as I've said in previous posts. It's now in my personal thoughts going to be the week of ( or JUST before) Christmas before any serious changes began to show themselves with BOTH cold air and snow for many reading. A False hope brings no merit to the forecaster when people hold accountable the forecaster. It may be JAN. Give merit to the persistance of the pattern, it's the real deal and no progs of maps can solve actually measured data and measured data points to a prolonged boring weather spell for many reading. Just my thoughts based on 25+ years in the forecast field. Prove me wrong. Strong data points show I'am correct. But "Hope" is still their for a White Christmas for most- but each hour that is running out. Hope all you want until the AO goes negative for at least a week. Carry on. 4 1 Quote The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimmesnow Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 Alpine Valley finally started blowing snow a few hours ago. The low dew point has been good for snow making. Now we just need the warm to massively under-perform tomorrow and I'm in good shape finally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james1976 Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 32 minutes ago, Grizzcoat said: yep. Gotta let the teleconnections take affect. Even if the forecasted -AO etc DO happen, it will take many days for it to take merit. Folks- we've been through this SAME thing the past several years with a late start to winter (or has what is said on this forum)-- Time after time ( year after year) expecting different results with same input (mild air/ no moisture, or if wet= rain ) - takes time to resolve. Keep the Faith- but it's not happening in the next 10-12 days as I've said in previous posts. It's now in my personal thoughts going to be the week of ( or JUST before) Christmas before any serious changes began to show themselves with BOTH cold air and snow for many reading. A False hope brings no merit to the forecaster when people hold accountable the forecaster. It may be JAN. Give merit to the persistance of the pattern, it's the real deal and no progs of maps can solve actually measured data and measured data points to a prolonged boring weather spell for many reading. Just my thoughts based on 25+ years in the forecast field. Prove me wrong. Strong data points show I'am correct. But "Hope" is still their for a White Christmas for most- but each hour that is running out. Hope all you want until the AO goes negative for at least a week. Carry on. What are your thoughts on the LRC? Do you put much stock in it or use it as a tool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud2380 Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 Update from the CPC... ouch... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james1976 Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 Yup the writing is on the wall for most of this month ^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud2380 Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 This probably has something to do with the CPCs above normal prediction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzcoat Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, james1976 said: What are your thoughts on the LRC? Do you put much stock in it or use it as a tool? Don't know enough about it to be fair. Haven't had time to really look into it. From those I trust - they show no mention of it. Long range forecasting to those not involved (like me to knitting a rug) are already turned negative to "long range" forecasting. As- most times- we don't get it right in 2-4 days. Too them (and defense of LRC for temp) - I do think it's possible to see LRC of temps in GENERAL. But storms? ( in in a cycle? ) Of course they will come with temp grad changes. Never seen a AFD with mention of LRC is all I'am saying. Maybe indirectly. But "indirectly" this DEC for the most- is a bust. To be blunt about it. Sorry. Forecasted the weather far too long. A "change" is always coming...... Can post all the maps you want - but until it happens - it's not happening .... people get caught up in models and all - for good purpose , I s'pose, but why? One looks at anything else in life not based on "failed" models" and would be fired. The public has a right to say in this- and we posting maps "saying 196 hours this or that" is HOGWASH. We need to be humbled by our profession and then-- maybe more people would respect our "professional opinions" That's all for now. ...-- 3 Quote The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatitdo Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 https://www.mlive.com/weather/2020/11/snow-forecasts-here-are-some-important-points-to-remember-as-we-enter-winter.html?fbclid=IwAR3nx7HHELHmyAvdke_denD2t8QbONxffpEIlHMz2WQQqaPDMnfQiRvQh0U this is a good reminder for all of us I believe "First off, an exact snow forecast for a storm starting five days from now and ending seven days is not possible. We can tell you that it looks like a storm that would accumulate six inches or more somewhere in the Great Lakes region. It’s our way of saying this will be a sizable storm somewhere in our region. I know you want to know five days out how much snow exactly is on the way. It’s actually a great compliment to my field of meteorology. We have come so far in accuracy that you want more and more accuracy. That’s okay. That more and more accuracy is always improving. But for now- when you see a “scary, end of the world” snow graphic posted on Facebook, ask yourself who posted it. Also ask yourself how long before the storm starts. If it’s more than 48 hours before a storm is going to start, don’t put much belief in the snow forecast. If the snow is just starting to fall on your head, you can probably have pretty good confidence in the forecast." 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaster220 Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 32 minutes ago, bud2380 said: This probably has something to do with the CPCs above normal prediction. Nina??? Looks more like a strong Nino! 1 Quote Winter 2023-24 Snow Total = 52.8" (89% Normal Season) Largest Storm: 12" (1/12-13) Oct: 0.1 Nov: 2.9 Dec: 7.5 Jan: 31.7 Feb: 6.0 Mar: 4.1 Apr: 0.0 Avg = 59.2" (Harrison): 2023-24 = xx.x" Avg = 45.0" (KDTW): 2022-23 = 33.5" 2021-22 = 35.6" Avg = 49.7" (KRMY): 2020-21 = 36.2" 2019-20 = 48.0" 2018-19 = 56.1" 2017-18 = 68.3" 2016-17 = 52" 2015-16 = 57.4" 2014-15 = 55.3" 2013-14 = 100.6" (coldest & snowiest in the modern record!) 2012-13 = 47.2" 2011-12 = 43.7" Legit Blizzards (high winds and dbl digit snows): Feb 2011, Dec 2009, Jan 2005, Dec 2000, Jan 1999, Mar 1998, Nov 1989, Jan 1982, Jan 1978, Jan 1977, Apr 1975, Mar 1973, Jan 1967, Feb 1965, Jan 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzcoat Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 You can extend this at least week later... AMIGO 1 Quote The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minny_Weather Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 There aren't any GEFS or EPS members that have me with zero snow thru 384, that's the good news I guess. I think Tom's right about the pattern change, but we'll need to wait until the end of this week to see it on models for realz. Right now it's still in wet dream range on GFS and ensembles. 4 1 Quote Formerly *ahem*: LNK_Weather, TOL_Weather, FAR_Weather, MSP_Weather, IMoveALot_Weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtown Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Depressing.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minny_Weather Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 The Euro weeklies have been garbage this season. That being said, they do consistently show some serious arctic air building up in Canada into the extended. I mean, 46 days out it shows 850T anoms in the -5.6*C area in N SK. That's massive for that far out. Right now, that's what we're lacking. The pattern will probably be more active in 14 or so days with some below normal temps, but I don't think we'll see a permanent shift to Winter until January. 1 2 Quote Formerly *ahem*: LNK_Weather, TOL_Weather, FAR_Weather, MSP_Weather, IMoveALot_Weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinton Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Happy first day of meterlogical winter. Coldest morning of the season with a temp of 14. 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minny_Weather Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 If there were to be a storm out of the upcoming active pattern, the weekend after next would be a good time to have that happen. The issue? Lack of cold air for the people who may be targeted. 3 Quote Formerly *ahem*: LNK_Weather, TOL_Weather, FAR_Weather, MSP_Weather, IMoveALot_Weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Paul Storm Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Fired up the lawnmower yesterday to close out November. Mulched some remaining leaves that I didn’t get to after the first snow in mid-Oct. Currently a balmy 12F to start December, and ice formation is in full effect on the lakes. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Hello from Chicago!!! Brrrr...back in the saddle and it's cold outside (25F). It's the coldest reading since early March. I flew in late last night as wheels touched down right at midnight. Skies were clear the entire trip back and once we began our decent into ORD, we flew through the "soup" as the old aviators called it. When I grabbed my bags and headed for the doorways, I felt that cold air flowing through and it hit me like a wall! My goodness, what a shock to the system. I didn't have my furnace on and it was a "comfy" 44F...ummm, ya...it took like 3 hours to get into the 60's! Anyhow, glad to be back home and it looks like the forecast has temps in the 40's all week long except for today. Nothing but sunshine all week long which is kinda nice to see. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzcoat Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Pretty impressive temps this AM without snowcover or - source region snowcover. Upper single digits ( for mins- map shows only current) common across much of IA. Would have been 0F or even colder with snowpack etc. 4 Quote The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Currently light snow w temps at 27F. Watching a potential system for the weekend. As of now, looks like it will go south of the GL's region, but close enough to produce some snowshowers. 2 Quote Snowfall for Winter 2023 -24 for Metro Detroit Area Oct 2023: 0.2" AN Nov 2023: 2.2" AN Dec 2023: 0.5" BN Insane! Jan 2024: 17.0" AN Feb 2024: 1.9" BN Mar 2024: 4.9" BN April 2024: Season So Far: 26.7" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 There seems to be some push back that any sensible winter wx shall return into our Sub. As it stands now, I'm committed to my initial thinking that Ol' Man Winter will return after a bit of a hiatus. Either all the models are wrong with their teleconnections forecasts...or...they are correct and we will see the operational runs "correct" in terms of where the colder air shall return. Every single model as a -AO/-NAO through the extended and a developing -EPO by the 10th along with a slightly negative to neutral PNA. These teleconnections suggest to look for a colder regime and a more active pattern due to the flip in the PNA. IMHO, once we get past the middle part of this week and the cut-off low effecting the central states, the models will begin to see the cold that I believe is coming. With Winter on my mind, Hello to Met Winter!!! Taking a look at the last 3 runs of the seasonal CanSIPS model, can you find the BUST??? Yup, near Scandinavia and Greenland....this model, along with several others, did not see this blocking pattern which creates a troughy look across the Eastern CONUS. Does the trough in the East hang on all month??? I doubt it bc I do see the SER returning but it doesn't appear to be a strong signal for a stout SER. Nonetheless, we will see the PNA play ball for a much more active SW Flow pattern. I have several LR clues which support this idea: 1) LRC 2) Rising SOI 3) The predicted 10mb Strat pattern Digging deeper, remember the GEFS forecast for the warm phases???? Not soo fast anymore...it's favoring the "null phase" just like the Euro has been showing and the JMA for sometime. BTW, this is huge actually, because if we don't see the amplification into the warm phases like we saw in recent years, the MJO won't be as heavily weighted. Let's hope they don't run the table into the warm phases. Finally, I'll end this post with my gut feeling along with LR model support that by the time we get closer towards the Winter Solstice the central CONUS should have a big rally in the snow dept. As always, who cashes in on the goods will create the fun trying to figure that out. If I were a betting man its going to be somewhere across the heartland and up into the GL's. Have a blessed day folks! 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 One last comment, can you script a better 500mb hemispheric pattern??? 00z EPS and other modeling showing the same signal in the LR. I mean, this screams Winter will return by the 13th... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westMJim Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Welcome to December and the start of meteorological winter. With November now in the record books it can be pointed out that it was a mild and for our area sunny month. At Grand Rapids the mean was 44.3 that is a departure of 4.2 the high for the month was 77 and the low for the month was 22 there was just 0.4” of reported snow fall. November 2020 is now the 7th warmest November at Grand Rapids. At Muskegon the mean was 45.9 that is a departure of +5.7. The high for the month at Muskegon was 75 and the low was 24. There was 1.2” of snow fall. At Muskegon, this November is now the 5th warmest of record. At Holland the mean there was 45.7 a departure of +4.0. The high for the month was 77 and the low was 24. They do not report snow fall at Holland. As with Muskegon this was Hollands 5th warmest November of record. And to the east at Lansing the mean there was 44.1 a departure of +4.5 the high was 77 and the low was 21 Lansing reported 0.5” of snow fall. And it was the 7th warmest November of record there. Records go back at Lansing all the way to 1863. All locations now are well below average for seasonal snow fall. As as the start of December looks to be mild and dry that should continue for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinton Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 12z NAM keeping my hopes of slush alive lol. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 On 11/29/2020 at 12:41 PM, Stormhunter87 said: My buddy in hutch looking good for this. And my sister who live just sw. of Hutch. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzcoat Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Just posting for entertainment purposes only. Put what stock you want in Euro weeklies- and yes I understand the Euro has had a very difficult seeing any BN air masses this fall. 1 Quote The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzcoat Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Quote The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Clinton said: 12z NAM keeping my hopes of slush alive lol. Fingers crossed bud! 1 1 Quote Snowfall for Winter 2023 -24 for Metro Detroit Area Oct 2023: 0.2" AN Nov 2023: 2.2" AN Dec 2023: 0.5" BN Insane! Jan 2024: 17.0" AN Feb 2024: 1.9" BN Mar 2024: 4.9" BN April 2024: Season So Far: 26.7" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Clinton said: Happy first day of meterlogical winter. Coldest morning of the season with a temp of 14. Same here except my thermometer showed 14.5°. (Technically 15°) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaster220 Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 5 hours ago, FAR_Weather said: The Euro weeklies have been garbage this season. That being said, they do consistently show some serious arctic air building up in Canada into the extended. I mean, 46 days out it shows 850T anoms in the -5.6*C area in N SK. That's massive for that far out. Right now, that's what we're lacking. The pattern will probably be more active in 14 or so days with some below normal temps, but I don't think we'll see a permanent shift to Winter until January. ooh, I can't wait! Actually, that's what I'm stuck doing. Can we just get some NW flow and clippers please? They don't dump much, but they're cold and good for a couple inches outside the LES belts. Would be nice just to see the lakes fired-up. Seems like it's been forever since we've had a good early LES outbreak. Really, is it that hard? 2 1 Quote Winter 2023-24 Snow Total = 52.8" (89% Normal Season) Largest Storm: 12" (1/12-13) Oct: 0.1 Nov: 2.9 Dec: 7.5 Jan: 31.7 Feb: 6.0 Mar: 4.1 Apr: 0.0 Avg = 59.2" (Harrison): 2023-24 = xx.x" Avg = 45.0" (KDTW): 2022-23 = 33.5" 2021-22 = 35.6" Avg = 49.7" (KRMY): 2020-21 = 36.2" 2019-20 = 48.0" 2018-19 = 56.1" 2017-18 = 68.3" 2016-17 = 52" 2015-16 = 57.4" 2014-15 = 55.3" 2013-14 = 100.6" (coldest & snowiest in the modern record!) 2012-13 = 47.2" 2011-12 = 43.7" Legit Blizzards (high winds and dbl digit snows): Feb 2011, Dec 2009, Jan 2005, Dec 2000, Jan 1999, Mar 1998, Nov 1989, Jan 1982, Jan 1978, Jan 1977, Apr 1975, Mar 1973, Jan 1967, Feb 1965, Jan 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralNebWeather Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Haven't had time to check the models today. Not good again for this region for another 15 days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowstorm83 Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Since 2011, Dec in Lincoln has averaged 3.9" (1981-2010 avg is 5.9"). It looks like we're continuing that trend, maybe with accumulating snow in the last 10 days of the month. Compare that to Feb, which has averaged 9.1" since 2011. Getting time to hope for a backloaded winter. 1 1 Quote Snowfall in Lincoln, NE: 2017-18: 21.4" 2018-19: 55.5" 2019-20: 17.6" 2020-21: 49.4" 2021-22: 5.1" Average: 26" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 26 minutes ago, jaster220 said: ooh, I can't wait! Actually, that's what I'm stuck doing. Can we just get some NW flow and clippers please? They don't dump much, but they're cold and good for a couple inches outside the LES belts. Would be nice just to see the lakes fired-up. Seems like it's been forever since we've had a good early LES outbreak. Really, is it that hard? The pattern is not conducive for big storms, but I agree w you 100% about getting clippers. These sometimes overperform and produce some good accumulations. Quote Snowfall for Winter 2023 -24 for Metro Detroit Area Oct 2023: 0.2" AN Nov 2023: 2.2" AN Dec 2023: 0.5" BN Insane! Jan 2024: 17.0" AN Feb 2024: 1.9" BN Mar 2024: 4.9" BN April 2024: Season So Far: 26.7" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud2380 Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Euro showing a potent Nor'Easter this weekend. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Attm, its cloudy and cold w temps at 29F. Gotta tell ya, we might have not gotten a lot of snow from this storm, but it sure does look wintry outside w a snow cover ground. "Tis The Season y'all." 3 1 Quote Snowfall for Winter 2023 -24 for Metro Detroit Area Oct 2023: 0.2" AN Nov 2023: 2.2" AN Dec 2023: 0.5" BN Insane! Jan 2024: 17.0" AN Feb 2024: 1.9" BN Mar 2024: 4.9" BN April 2024: Season So Far: 26.7" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacsh Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 34 minutes ago, Niko said: Attm, its cloudy and cold w temps at 29F. Gotta tell ya, we might have not gotten a lot of snow from this storm, but it sure does look wintry outside w a snow cover ground. "Tis The Season y'all." Sunny and 39 here on the west side of the state. If it's not going to snow in West Michigan in December it might as well be "mild" and sunny. We don't get sun over here in December typically. Feels great. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud2380 Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 It's currently warmer in Caribou, ME (59) than Orlando, FL (56). And there are freeze warnings throughout a large area of northern Florida. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 47 minutes ago, Stacsh said: Sunny and 39 here on the west side of the state. If it's not going to snow in West Michigan in December it might as well be "mild" and sunny. We don't get sun over here in December typically. Feels great. Enjoy it while it lasts. At some point, it will get snowy and frigid. 1 Quote Snowfall for Winter 2023 -24 for Metro Detroit Area Oct 2023: 0.2" AN Nov 2023: 2.2" AN Dec 2023: 0.5" BN Insane! Jan 2024: 17.0" AN Feb 2024: 1.9" BN Mar 2024: 4.9" BN April 2024: Season So Far: 26.7" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james1976 Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 The weather pattern is so boring that DMX issued their afternoon AFD at 1:37PM. That's the earliest afternoon AFD I think I've ever seen from them. 1 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud2380 Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Yeah, this is getting really boring unfortunately. We had long stretches of dry benign weather all summer and fall though, so if we are on a cyclical pattern, then this should not really be a surprise. I've been watching each run of the GFS to get a clue of a pattern change and it looks like were about 10 days away from any positive pattern change. Maybe in a week something more interesting will show up to track. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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