TheNewCulverJosh Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 11 minutes ago, Deweydog said: Computers don’t have the capability to rationalize things as to say “well, this solution would be really really unusual so we’ll scrap it for something more middle of the road.” That’s where human interpretation becomes important. Exactly, that is why the models suck so badly. Not enough human interpretation is involved, IMO. How many times do we get forecasts based on computer models, not human interpretation? I am pretty sure nobody knows the answer to this question which is why it is such a good question. What is the algorithm? Climatology vs. human interpretation vs. historical data...percentages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeinthevalley Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 13 minutes ago, Fircrest said: Don't worry about it. I love weather and baseball. Went to my first Mariners game in the Kingdome in 1977 when I was 11 years old. Been a fan ever since, through the bad years (there's been a lot) and the great times (a few). Can always remember my wedding anniversary year because it was 1995 the year of the mariners great finish! Don't know the exact date of the game you attended, but I think it was about 72f with calm conditions in the K'dome at first pitch. Correct me if I am wrong.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterdog Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Nice afternoon. 45/35 with .18” since midnight. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fircrest Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 13 minutes ago, jakeinthevalley said: Don't know the exact date of the game you attended, but I think it was about 72f with calm conditions in the K'dome at first pitch. Correct me if I am wrong.... Yes! How did you know? Nice job keeping it weather related. Never had a rainout in those days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty808 Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 27 minutes ago, Jesse said: Seems like you took the downvotes pretty personally. Some do and some don’t. I am sorry about that. Even though I was using the button for its precise purpose. Doesn’t mean I am downvoting you as an individual I do take that sort of thing personally, and won’t deny it. I know you’re not a troll dude. Just please keep try to stay positive man. Especially after 2020 lol. Much love to you and everyone else 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeinthevalley Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, Fircrest said: Yes! How did you know? Nice job keeping it weather related. Never had a rainout in those days. Baseball and weather.....mind like a steel trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deweydog Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 37 minutes ago, TheNewCulverJosh said: Exactly, that is why the models suck so badly. Not enough human interpretation is involved, IMO. How many times do we get forecasts based on computer models, not human interpretation? I am pretty sure nobody knows the answer to this question which is why it is such a good question. What is the algorithm? Climatology vs. human interpretation vs. historical data...percentages? No, that’s not why models suck so badly. Weather modeling is actually an incredible feat. If anything, it’s us that suck. We expect way too much out of them. In general, modeling is magnificently accurate within five days and if you were to make a forecast based on a blend of the big ones within that time frame you’d way more often than not do pretty well. 4 1 Quote My preferences can beat up your preferences’ dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaWaWx Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Running +1.5 on the month now. Was at +3.3 or something earlier this month. 1 Quote Tacoma WA elevation 300’ Monthly rainfall-3.56” Warm season rainfall-11.14” Max temp-88 +80 highs-2 +85 highs-2 +90 highs-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MossMan Posted January 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Just so I’m clear we are tossing the EURO because what it’s showing is not feasible. We are going with the GFS now correct? Might go ahead and put the mower deck back on the mower since our lowland threat is over. Currently 41 degrees after a high of 44 and a low of 35. .06” on the day. Quote Elevation 580’ Location a few miles east of I-5 on the Snohomish Co side of the Snohomish/Skagit border. I love snow/cold AND sun/warmth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Defense Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, MossMan said: Just so I’m clear we are tossing the EURO because what it’s showing is not feasible. We are going with the GFS now correct? Might go ahead and put the mower deck back on the mower since our lowland threat is over. Currently 41 degrees after a high of 44 and a low of 35. .06” on the day. Then that means I need to start shopping for a mower. I wonder when Lowe's and Home Depot will start up their sales.... 1 Quote Britton Rd Bellingham Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KWABELLI103?cm_ven=localwx_pwsdash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deweydog Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 54 minutes ago, jakeinthevalley said: Baseball and weather.....mind like a steel trap My baseball mind and weather mind are very much intertwined. A lot of memorized stats that no one else gives two shits about. Does anyone really care that Jesse Barfield led the AL in dingers at one point? 1 Quote My preferences can beat up your preferences’ dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthHillFrosty Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, MossMan said: Just so I’m clear we are tossing the EURO because what it’s showing is not feasible. We are going with the GFS now correct? Might go ahead and put the mower deck back on the mower since our lowland threat is over. Currently 41 degrees after a high of 44 and a low of 35. .06” on the day. Naw were tossing the GFS and going with the Euro i think 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MossMan Posted January 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Deweydog said: My baseball mind and weather mind are very much intertwined. A lot of memorized stats that no one else gives two shits about. Does anyone really care that Jesse Barfield led AL in dingers at one point? I like football. 1 Quote Elevation 580’ Location a few miles east of I-5 on the Snohomish Co side of the Snohomish/Skagit border. I love snow/cold AND sun/warmth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiedog Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Deweydog said: My baseball mind and weather mind are very much intertwined. A lot of memorized stats that no one else gives two shits about. Does anyone really care that Jesse Barfield led AL in dingers at one point? He would have had one more dinger but The Kid took it away in one of the greatest home run robberies of all time, but who's paying attention to such things. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewCulverJosh Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 29 minutes ago, Deweydog said: No, that’s not why models suck so badly. Weather modeling is actually an incredible feat. If anything, it’s us that suck. We expect way too much out of them. In general, modeling is magnificently accurate within five days and if you were to make a forecast based on a blend of the big ones within that time frame you’d way more often than not do pretty well. Right, but the question wasn't answered. You have already said that human interpretation is involved. How much so??? When they were writing the code, how much human involvement was there? Did they just take it at face value or did they add some "humanity" to it. Not starting a "you're dumb Josh" debate or any flame war here. You have stated that humans have to interpret the models. Wouldn't that be written somehow into the algorithms/code? Maybe they add things specific to this season based off of recent findings? Maybe the computers don't know exactly how this year has played out versus history? These are things to ponder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverFallsAndrew Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 18 minutes ago, MossMan said: Just so I’m clear we are tossing the EURO because what it’s showing is not feasible. We are going with the GFS now correct? Might go ahead and put the mower deck back on the mower since our lowland threat is over. Currently 41 degrees after a high of 44 and a low of 35. .06” on the day. Yes. 1 Quote Snowfall Precip 2022-23: 95.0" 2022-23: 17.39" 2021-22: 52.6" 2021-22: 91.46" 2020-21: 12.0" 2020-21: 71.59" 2019-20: 23.5" 2019-20: 58.54" 2018-19: 63.5" 2018-19: 66.33" 2017-18: 30.3" 2017-18: 59.83" 2016-17: 49.2" 2016-17: 97.58" 2015-16: 11.75" 2015-16: 68.67" 2014-15: 3.5" 2013-14: 11.75" 2013-14: 62.30 2012-13: 16.75" 2012-13: 78.45 2011-12: 98.5" 2011-12: 92.67" It's always sunny at Winters Hill! Fighting the good fight against weather evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poulsbo Snowman Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Seattle afternoon AFD: LONG TERM /MONDAY THROUGH THURSDAY/...An upper trough stays situated offshore into Monday with another frontal wave traveling around its periphery for another rather wet day. The upper trough finally moves onshore Monday night and Tuesday with precipitation gradually decreasing. As we approach the middle of the upcoming week, upper ridging seeks to establish itself just offshore. This potential shift in pattern will need to be monitored as we move into next week. It leads to a rather low confidence forecast for later Wednesday and beyond. Depending on the amplitude and placement of upper ridging offshore, it could open the door for potentially colder systems to approach the region in north/northwesterly flow aloft. This is reflected well in drastically different deterministic model solutions. A number of ensemble forecast model members are latching on to this possibility with some rather chilly temperatures just beyond the current forecast extended period. Stay tuned. 27 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverFallsAndrew Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 11 minutes ago, MossMan said: I like football. I played both, but I liked playing baseball a lot more, and was a lot better at it. There is a certain comradery on a baseball team, you just don't get on a football team. But I have to confess, I literally cannot watch more than 1-2 innings of a baseball game on television anymore. But I check out pretty much every box score from every game, and love going to games. On the other hand, I can watch pretty much any football game on TV and stay interested. 2 1 Quote Snowfall Precip 2022-23: 95.0" 2022-23: 17.39" 2021-22: 52.6" 2021-22: 91.46" 2020-21: 12.0" 2020-21: 71.59" 2019-20: 23.5" 2019-20: 58.54" 2018-19: 63.5" 2018-19: 66.33" 2017-18: 30.3" 2017-18: 59.83" 2016-17: 49.2" 2016-17: 97.58" 2015-16: 11.75" 2015-16: 68.67" 2014-15: 3.5" 2013-14: 11.75" 2013-14: 62.30 2012-13: 16.75" 2012-13: 78.45 2011-12: 98.5" 2011-12: 92.67" It's always sunny at Winters Hill! Fighting the good fight against weather evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverFallsAndrew Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Poulsbo Snowman said: Seattle afternoon AFD: LONG TERM /MONDAY THROUGH THURSDAY/...An upper trough stays situated offshore into Monday with another frontal wave traveling around its periphery for another rather wet day. The upper trough finally moves onshore Monday night and Tuesday with precipitation gradually decreasing. As we approach the middle of the upcoming week, upper ridging seeks to establish itself just offshore. This potential shift in pattern will need to be monitored as we move into next week. It leads to a rather low confidence forecast for later Wednesday and beyond. Depending on the amplitude and placement of upper ridging offshore, it could open the door for potentially colder systems to approach the region in north/northwesterly flow aloft. This is reflected well in drastically different deterministic model solutions. A number of ensemble forecast model members are latching on to this possibility with some rather chilly temperatures just beyond the current forecast extended period. Stay tuned. 27 Nobody tell a soul! Quote Snowfall Precip 2022-23: 95.0" 2022-23: 17.39" 2021-22: 52.6" 2021-22: 91.46" 2020-21: 12.0" 2020-21: 71.59" 2019-20: 23.5" 2019-20: 58.54" 2018-19: 63.5" 2018-19: 66.33" 2017-18: 30.3" 2017-18: 59.83" 2016-17: 49.2" 2016-17: 97.58" 2015-16: 11.75" 2015-16: 68.67" 2014-15: 3.5" 2013-14: 11.75" 2013-14: 62.30 2012-13: 16.75" 2012-13: 78.45 2011-12: 98.5" 2011-12: 92.67" It's always sunny at Winters Hill! Fighting the good fight against weather evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiedog Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 minute ago, SilverFallsAndrew said: I played both, but I liked playing baseball a lot more, and was a lot better at it. There is a certain comradery on a baseball team, you just don't get on a football team. But I have to confess, I literally cannot watch more than 1-2 innings of a baseball game on television anymore. But I check out pretty much every box score from every game, and love going to games. On the other hand, I can watch pretty much any football game on TV and stay interested. Thinking man's game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deweydog Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 8 minutes ago, TheNewCulverJosh said: Right, but the question wasn't answered. You have already said that human interpretation is involved. How much so??? When they were writing the code, how much human involvement was there? Did they just take it at face value or did they add some "humanity" to it. Not starting a "you're dumb Josh" debate or any flame war here. You have stated that humans have to interpret the models. Wouldn't that be written somehow into the algorithms/code? Maybe they add things specific to this season based off of recent findings? Maybe the computers don't know exactly how this year has played out versus history? These are things to ponder. The models are entirely statistical. Obviously they have indirect knowledge of our climate norms just by virtue of having more knowledge about the current state of the atmosphere than any one human could possibly possess. They are inherently flawed, particularly in the long range, due to the fact they can’t apply that knowledge in a more common sense and/or wisdom driven manner. If you read NWS forecast discussions you can seen this process taking place in narrative fashion, at least the offices that don’t phone it in. Of course, this isn’t the only reason models can struggle. Weather patterns are chaotic by their very nature. 1 1 Quote My preferences can beat up your preferences’ dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Pretty nice EPS today if I do say so myself! Looking at the individual members several show SEA having lows below 20 and some go below 10. PNA on the mean almost drops to -4. Of course now the GFS suite of models has backed off a bit now that the ECMWF suite is going all in. Using the GEM as a tie breaker things are looking pretty good. Hopefully the GFS will be all in tonight so we can get more confidence. 2 1 Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bainbridgekid Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, MossMan said: Just so I’m clear we are tossing the EURO because what it’s showing is not feasible. We are going with the GFS now correct? Might go ahead and put the mower deck back on the mower since our lowland threat is over. Currently 41 degrees after a high of 44 and a low of 35. .06” on the day. The specifics of how the Euro gets cold here day 9-10 is highly suspect. Doesn't mean it won't get cold overall though. Second week of February looks pretty decent for that range. 3 Quote Everett Snowfall (510 feet elevation) Snow since February 2019: 91" 2023-24: 6" 2022-23: 17.5" 2021-22: 17.75" 2020-21: 14.5” 2019-20: 10.5" 2018-19: 24.75" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 BTW the control on the 18z GFS ensemble dropped to a measly -21 on the 850s at one point. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wizard Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 minute ago, bainbridgekid said: The specifics of how the Euro gets cold here day 9-10 is highly suspect. Doesn't mean it won't get cold overall though. Second week of February looks pretty decent for that range. It actually looked pretty straight forward to me, but I didn't scrutinize it. Very strong support from the EPS as well. Quote Death To Warm Anomalies! Winter 2023-24 stats Total Snowfall = 1.0" Day with 1" or more snow depth = 1 Total Hail = 0.0 Total Ice = 0.2 Coldest Low = 13 Lows 32 or below = 45 Highs 32 or below = 3 Lows 20 or below = 3 Highs 40 or below = 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverFallsAndrew Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 minute ago, bainbridgekid said: The specifics of how the Euro gets cold here day 9-10 is highly suspect. Doesn't mean it won't get cold overall though. Second week of February looks pretty decent for that range. There is also the possibility the EURO and last night's GEM are just jumping the gun a little bit. The EURO was a pretty big outlier compared to its ensemble suite, but by about day 12-13 on the EPS the mean for PDX was down below -5C. Quote Snowfall Precip 2022-23: 95.0" 2022-23: 17.39" 2021-22: 52.6" 2021-22: 91.46" 2020-21: 12.0" 2020-21: 71.59" 2019-20: 23.5" 2019-20: 58.54" 2018-19: 63.5" 2018-19: 66.33" 2017-18: 30.3" 2017-18: 59.83" 2016-17: 49.2" 2016-17: 97.58" 2015-16: 11.75" 2015-16: 68.67" 2014-15: 3.5" 2013-14: 11.75" 2013-14: 62.30 2012-13: 16.75" 2012-13: 78.45 2011-12: 98.5" 2011-12: 92.67" It's always sunny at Winters Hill! Fighting the good fight against weather evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverFallsAndrew Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, snow_wizard said: It actually looked pretty straight forward to me, but I didn't scrutinize it. Very strong support from the EPS as well. I posted the spaghetti chart earlier. It was a pretty big outlier. 1 Quote Snowfall Precip 2022-23: 95.0" 2022-23: 17.39" 2021-22: 52.6" 2021-22: 91.46" 2020-21: 12.0" 2020-21: 71.59" 2019-20: 23.5" 2019-20: 58.54" 2018-19: 63.5" 2018-19: 66.33" 2017-18: 30.3" 2017-18: 59.83" 2016-17: 49.2" 2016-17: 97.58" 2015-16: 11.75" 2015-16: 68.67" 2014-15: 3.5" 2013-14: 11.75" 2013-14: 62.30 2012-13: 16.75" 2012-13: 78.45 2011-12: 98.5" 2011-12: 92.67" It's always sunny at Winters Hill! Fighting the good fight against weather evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-SEA Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Also remember how crazy the models looked last January... but places from Seattle southward ended up with barely anything. Even getting below freezing was a challenge. 1 Quote **REPORTED CONDITIONS AND ANOMALIES ARE NOT MEANT TO IMPLY ANYTHING ON A REGIONAL LEVEL UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, umadbro said: 116 wins was 2001 One of the greatest success and also greatest failure is that 2001 season. Maybe if 9/11 didn't happen it would've been a different story, everyone was rooting for the Yankees after it happened. We'll never know. 116 wins to not make it to the WS and also could have 117 wins if they didn't blow the double digit lead in Cleveland that summer. Looking back, it's amazing that with the talents the M's had they didn't ever make it to the W.S. Pat Gillick was also a great executive but did very little to replenish the farm and pretty left the system in shambles for years, until this very day. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewCulverJosh Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 21 minutes ago, Deweydog said: The models are entirely statistical. Obviously they have indirect knowledge of our climate norms just by virtue of having more knowledge about the current state of the atmosphere than any one human could possibly possess. They are inherently flawed, particularly in the long range, due to the fact they can’t apply that knowledge in a more common sense and/or wisdom driven manner. If you read NWS forecast discussions you can seen this process taking place in narrative fashion, at least the offices that don’t phone it in. Of course, this isn’t the only reason models can struggle. Weather patterns are chaotic by their very nature. Pendleton is definitely out then, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, TT-SEA said: Also remember how crazy the models looked last January... but places from Seattle southward ended up with barely anything. Even getting below freezing was a challenge. That was also a super vortex/+NAM year. Getting cold south of the border was an arduous task. 4 Quote Live Weather Cam: https://www.youtube.com/live/KxlIo8-KVpc?si=xKLCFYWbZieAfyh6 PWS Wunderground https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KMDBETHE62 PWS CWOP/NOAA: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=F3819&hours=72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blizzard777 Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 7 hours ago, Deweydog said: This is not a Game. Please Stop. Boooooooo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jesse said: C’mon man. There’s a banter thread literally a small scroll down from this one. Oops! OK! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luminen Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 My March forecast for first snowfall is still looking pretty good. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbbyJr Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Phil said: That was also a super vortex/+NAM year. Getting cold south of the border was an arduous task. It was very unfortunate that the vortex was so strong last January. Otherwise it probably would have been a historic winter pattern for the PNW. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deweydog Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jginmartini said: Boooooooo February could be a real Blockbuster though! 1 1 1 Quote My preferences can beat up your preferences’ dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 15 minutes ago, TT-SEA said: Also remember how crazy the models looked last January... but places from Seattle southward ended up with barely anything. Even getting below freezing was a challenge. I remember the last minute fire hose feature that came up the night before on the models that initially aimed the moisture at Seattle that would give it insane amount of snow. What unfortunately ended up happening was it was a little bit north and Port Angeles took the brunt of that storm and anyone N. of Seattle. It was VERY close last year for Seattle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurston Howell III Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 4 hours ago, Monty808 said: We should start a weather forum softball league. No joke lol You guys would probably like my yard. I have a couple acres and have a lighted wiffleball stadium with 25' foul poles and a faux jumbotron. Some pretty good ballplayers would come by and hit, they started dominating me when I got in my 50's however. My competitive baseball ended after HS, had a torn labrum from football and it was back in the day before you could really do anything about it so that limited my baseball and football future. Ended up playing JC basketball instead. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-SEA Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 We had some model hype about late November... then the second week of December was the focus... then Christmas... then the first week of January... then the middle of January... then late January. All resulted in basically nothing. And yet based on past years... we can probably assume the February hype will actually pay off. We should just know we have to wait until February. But nobody wants to think about that in November! 4 1 Quote **REPORTED CONDITIONS AND ANOMALIES ARE NOT MEANT TO IMPLY ANYTHING ON A REGIONAL LEVEL UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Ranger Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Baseball! Sized hail. 1 3 1 1 1 Quote A forum for the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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