Unusual weather trivia that is hard to google

[OKwx2k4]

On Alaska, could the questionable readings be possible due to the great climate shift of the late 70s? It's just a thought. Been pretty solidly in a different climate era since then with the exception of a few huge ridging episodes in this decade but most of those occurred in winter months. Just my thoughts on maybe why they haven't been repeated since.

[Scott]

On Alaska, could the questionable readings be possible due to the great climate shift of the late 70s? It's just a thought. Been pretty solidly in a different climate era since then with the exception of a few huge ridging episodes in this decade but most of those occurred in winter months. Just my thoughts on maybe why they haven't been repeated since.

 

Which ones are you referring to?  These ones?

 

None of the 100's measured at old COOP's in Alaska are reliable, it isn't even a question in my opinion. We have:

 

104 on 6/7/1936 @ Ruby

102 on 6/26/1916 @ Camp #6

100 on 6/20/1915 @ Anchorage

100 on 6/27/1915 @ Fort Yukon

100 on 7/30/1907 @ Teikhill

 

No, I don't think they are due to a shift in climate.  The 100 in Anchorage, for example just isn't plausible climate shift or not.  

[OKwx2k4]

Which ones are you referring to? These ones?

None of the 100's measured at old COOP's in Alaska are reliable, it isn't even a question in my opinion. We have:

104 on 6/7/1936 @ Ruby

102 on 6/26/1916 @ Camp #6

100 on 6/20/1915 @ Anchorage

100 on 6/27/1915 @ Fort Yukon

100 on 7/30/1907 @ Teikhill

No, I don't think they are due to a shift in climate. The 100 in Anchorage, for example just isn't plausible climate shift or not.

Nope. You're right. Not even a question at all. Carry on!

[wx_statman]

Nope. You're right. Not even a question at all. Carry on!

 

There's no physical reason for Alaskan temps hitting 100 degrees back in the early 20th century....and not doing it in the last 50+ years. If that's what you're wondering. The climate there is warming. The only plausible explanation is that thermometers back in the old days weren't properly sheltered. So those 100 degree readings aren't real shade temperatures. 

[OKwx2k4]

A couple of the temps I was thinking of were the Haines readings between 1976-78. If you have clarified that they were most likely overexposed, then that is fine. My thoughts were that it factually does fit with a climate pattern that was actually in play during that era. Would've coincided well with the climate shift over the NPAC.

[wx_statman]

A couple of the temps I was thinking of were the Haines readings between 1976-78. If you have clarified that they were most likely overexposed, then that is fine. My thoughts were that it factually does fit with a climate pattern that was actually in play during that era. Would've coincided well with the climate shift over the NPAC.

 

The coincident timing to the PDO flip in 1976-77 is interesting, for sure. 

[OKwx2k4]

Can someone tell me where to find the climate maps like NCDC anomalies maps for the US?

[Scott]

A couple of the temps I was thinking of were the Haines readings between 1976-78. If you have clarified that they were most likely overexposed, then that is fine

 

 

I'd say overexposed.

 

Between 1976 and 1979 Haines was at or near the top of the list when it came to warm temperatures in Alaska in the summer months.  From 1980 onward, it drops way down the list and doesn't have anywhere close to the warmest readings in Alaska for any summer month.  There was definitely something going on with the weather station during that time period.    

[erik1974]

   We seem to have Alaska pretty well settled now.  Someome asked about Montana, so here is my version:

 

Jan 79 1919 Choteau   -60 1963 West Yellowstone (-70 at Rogers Pass in 1954 is questionable)

Feb 79 1932 Columbus   -66 1933 West Yellowstone

Mar 88 1910 Miles City   -45 1906, 1897 Fort Logan, Glasgow

Apr 97 1980, 1939 Poplar, Winfried   -30 1935 Summit

May 105 1937 Rock Springs   -5 1954 Polebridge

June 112 2002, 1988 Baker, Wolf Point   11 1943 Kings Hill

July 117 1937 Medicine Lake   15 1919 Bowen

Aug 112 1961 Iliad   5 1910 Bowen

Sept 107 2003, 1983, 1950 Ridgway, Poplar, Jordan/Garland   -9 1926 West Yellowstone

Oct 99 2011, 1910 Melstone, Springbrook   -30 1935 Summit

Nov 85 1975 Grassrange   -53 1959 Lincoln 14NE

Dec 78 1939 Crow Agency/Grassrange   -59 1924 West Yellowstone

    The 117 reading at Medicine Lake has been questioned recently.  It may or may not be legit.  What about 117 degree reading at Glendive in 1893??

[Scott]

The 117 reading at Medicine Lake has been questioned recently.  It may or may not be legit.  What about 117 degree reading at Glendive in 1893??

 

 

I'd say both are questionable, but not entirely impossible.   Both seem overexposed in relation to other readings in Montana during those two heat waves.

 

Personally, I believe  that these 113's are all plausible:

 

Hysham 25 SSE on 7/15/2002

Garland on 7/17/1923

Miles City on 7/16/1966

Culbertson on 7/5/1937

Glasgow on 7/31/1900

 

The 115 at Outlook on 7/5/1937 seems a little overexposed compared to the surrounding areas.  Same with the 114 at Radersburg on 7/13/1896. 

 

It is also interesting that there have been no readings below 11 in Montana in June.  

 

 5 1910 Bowen

 

 

Hegben Dam as well.  

[erik1974]

BTW, Scott & Erik (and anyone else who might be interested) - it just dawned on me today that I can easily run a monthly extremes report in xmACIS for any given state, for any month. Maybe you guys have already figured it out? Either way, on the xmACIS site (http://xmacis.rcc-acis.org/):

 

-go to multi-station

-then multi-station extremes

-set stations active to por-2018

-set analysis period to por-2018

-choose your variable

-set length of period to 1 day (highest avg for a day = the record high!)

-choose highest or lowest

-click more options

-use restrict date range to set whatever period you wish

-sort ascending/descending, etc. It's cool to sort by year too to see which records are the newest, which are the oldest, etc. 

-you can sort by state, county, CWA, climate zone, etc. 

 

I just did that for AK for 8/1 to 8/31 in order to isolate the highest temperatures for Aug. Worked like a charm! Should greatly help in looking up monthly extremes for each state. The only downside is that this approach won't capture readings that have been flagged and QC'd out. You'd still need to check the original state monthly climo reports to corroborate those. 

     Thanks for the info WxStatsman!  Will be checking out various states east of Rockies for dubious readings in the next few weeks.

[Phil]

There's no physical reason for Alaskan temps hitting 100 degrees back in the early 20th century....and not doing it in the last 50+ years. If that's what you're wondering. The climate there is warming. The only plausible explanation is that thermometers back in the old days weren't properly sheltered. So those 100 degree readings aren't real shade temperatures.

Well, a cooler global climate, by itself, wouldn’t preclude 100*F from occurring if the large scale circulation was different.

 

That said, I do agree with you here, because there has been a definite eastward migration of the North American cold vortex over the last three centuries, which has resulted in dramatic warming across western North America and northeast Siberia, even relative to the rest of the planet.

[wx_statman]

Well, a cooler global climate, by itself, wouldn’t preclude 100*F from occurring if the large scale circulation was different.

 

That said, I do agree with you here, because there has been a definite eastward migration of the North American cold vortex over the last three centuries, which has resulted in dramatic warming across western North America and northeast Siberia, even relative to the rest of the planet.

 

Realized I never got back to you. I was a little sloppy in my wording on that post. You're right that a cooler background climate doesn't necessarily preclude certain extremes happening (or not happening). It could be that large-scale circulation patterns that are associated with a cooler NHEM/planet favor extreme height rises in certain areas compared to the modern, warmer climate. That is certainly possible. And since the basic mechanics of a high pressure ridge don't change under global warming, this could lead to a reduction in extreme top-end readings in some areas despite significant warming in the means. 

 

Though we seem to be in agreement that old Alaska readings aren't very reliable. 

[Scott]

Here's one of the strangest temperature anomalies in the United States.   Missouri isn't in the West, but since we were talking about anomalies, it is a good one to discuss.  

 

In Missouri, there are several places where the average extreme in April is only one degree from the average extreme in May.   There are a whole lot of places with only two degrees difference.  Some of the ones that have only one degree difference between April and May are as follows:

CAMDENTON 2 NW

GALENA

UNKNOWN

NEW FLORENCE 2 

POTOSI 3 N 

ST LOUIS WSFO

STEELVILLE 2 N

WAYNESVILLE 2 W 

 

There are two many to list that have only a two degree difference.  

 

See below:

https://wrcc.dri.edu/Climate/comp_table_state_show.php?stype=temp_extreme_max_month_avg&sstate=mo&stitle=Monthly+Average+Extreme+Max+Temperatures&sparent=m-n

Also, several places in Missouri average more 90+ degree temperatures in April than they do in May.   At first I thought it might be one or two out of season heatwaves throwing off the statistics, but it is not.  For several locations, more years have hit 90+ in April than May.

 

May is a little wetter that April in Missouri, but not enough to count for more 90 degree temperatures in April than May.

 

Why would some places in Missouri be more likely to hit 90 in April than May?   

[Phil]

Probably humidity levels increasing under the development of the Bermuda High, which keeps high temperatures in check. It’s why the SE US doesn’t get as hot as Phoenix et al.

 

April can also feature longer wavelengths and stronger pseudo-chinook events which bring dry heat under more westerly flow aloft off the Rockies, as compared to May.

[Scott]

Probably humidity levels increasing under the development of the Bermuda High, which keeps high temperatures in check. It’s why the SE US doesn’t get as hot as Phoenix et al.

 

April can also feature longer wavelengths and stronger pseudo-chinook events which bring dry heat under more westerly flow aloft off the Rockies, as compared to May.

 

Good info.   I wonder why it seems unique to Missouri though?  

[wx_statman]

Probably humidity levels increasing under the development of the Bermuda High, which keeps high temperatures in check. It’s why the SE US doesn’t get as hot as Phoenix et al.

 

April can also feature longer wavelengths and stronger pseudo-chinook events which bring dry heat under more westerly flow aloft off the Rockies, as compared to May.

 

That's my guess as well. I'm not sure exactly when the LLJ off the Gulf of Mexico takes over (in response to the Bermuda high building westward), but probably around May? From that point on, moisture in the low levels dominates the Plains. You need drought years like 1934, 2011, etc. to pull off extreme heat events especially toward late May. 

[Scott]

Good trivia question:

 

Which states have snowed in July in historic times?

I can think of 17 and maybe an 18th.

[Phil]

Good trivia question:

 

Which states have snowed in July in historic times?

 

I can think of 17 and maybe an 18th.

Depends what you mean by “historic”.

 

Go back 18,000 years, and July - September was the snowiest time of year for most of (what is now) the modern day USA.

[Scott]

Depends what you mean by “historic”.

 

 

For the sake of argument, let's say in the past 150 years since there aren't as many weather records before then.  

 

If you can find earlier records, say from the 1700's or 1800's we can count those too. 

[Scott]

Which states have snowed in July in historic times?

 

To the best of my knowledge:

 

Alaska

Arizona

California

Colorado

Hawaii

Idaho

Maine

Montana

Nevada

New Hampshire

New Mexico

Oregon

South Dakota

Washington

Wyoming

 

All these have snowed for sure in July.

 

Yonkers (New York) had a reported snow in July by some media sources, but it was hail. I don't know of any confirmed reports of July snow in New York, but snow might be possible on the highest mountains in July.

 

It has snowed on Mount Mansfield Vermont in August, so it may have snowed there in July at one time or another, but there doesn't seem to be any records of it. Snow has only been recorded there four times in June, so July snow is unlikely, but perhaps possible.

 

Are there any missing from the list?

[wx_statman]

I remember reading about snow flurries on Lake Michigan (WI & MI) in August 1882. I believe it was on the 8th that month. Not sure about July though. Maybe sometime between 1650-1850.....

 

Can you tell me more about the supposed Indiana snowfall in July? I've never heard of something like that. 

[Phil]

I’ve seen it snow in late June at Snowshoe, WV.

 

I’ll bet it’s snowed up there in July before, too. The period of record is very short, unfortunately, so there’s nothing official in the books, but it’s probably only a matter of time before it happens.

[wx_statman]

I’ve seen it snow in late June at Snowshoe, WV.

 

I’ll bet it’s snowed up there in July before, too. The period of record is very short, unfortunately, so there’s nothing official in the books, but it’s probably only a matter of time before it happens.

 

That reminds me, Pennsylvania should be on the list as well. I remember reading about snowfalls in the PA highlands during the 19th century. Just did some google searching and found a source (courtesy of Chris Burt):

 

https://maps.wunderground.com/blog/weatherhistorian/comment.html?entrynum=70

 

Ben Gelber mentions in his book The Pennsylvania Weather Book the strange occurrence of snow flurries in the state’s highlands of Bradford County on July 4, 1859. Snow flurries also occurred again here on July 2, 1918.

[Scott]

Can you tell me more about the supposed Indiana snowfall in July? I've never heard of something like that.

 

From Chris Burt's book:

 

A bizarre snowfall occurred on July 2, 1927, in Wabash County, Indiana. A severe thunderstorm produced hail up to 2" in diameter, but in a small area some 8" of real snow accumulated within the larger hail streak. The report was investigated by the state director of the Weather Bureau and found to be correct. Most likely, an intense downdraft of cold air from within the thunderstorm momentarily brought the snowflakes to the surface.

 

Unless this was some elaborate hoax or was a false report, this has got to be the most freak snowstorm ever to hit the US and perhaps the world. Recorded temperatures in the area ranged from highs of 85-90 and lows 65-70 on 7/2/1927. The area where the snow supposedly fell and the temperatures there must have been incredibly localized.

 

I remember reading about snow flurries on Lake Michigan (WI & MI) in August 1882. I believe it was on the 8th that month.

 

Yes, 8/8/1882 (the report was from the steamer Meominee). I have doubts that it was snow though. Unless the snow was caused by something similar to the snow in Indiana, my guess is that it was either hail (most likely) or the report is false. Hail can turn to slush (the report from 8/8/1882 reported "slush" rather than snow).

 

The coldest low temperature in Wisconsin and Michigan I can find on 8/8/1882 was 55 degrees at Marquette. It can snow when temperatures are in the 50's, but not 4".

 

The latest snow reported in Minnesota is on 6/4, 5/30 in Wisconsin, and 6/2 in Michigan. Snow has however been on the ground in Michigan and Wisconsin later than these dates, but it was leftover from winter and spring.

 

The earliest snow in Minnesota was 8/31 (but it didn't stick); 9/7 for Wisconsin (2nd earliest 9/21), and 9/13 for Michigan (though if the 9/7 report for Wisconsin is correct, it probably snowed in Michigan too as the location was very close to the border).

 

Some weather charts for Bergland Michigan has report "snow" in July and August, but it was hail.

 

The only other thing I can think of is that it was something similar to what happened in Indiana; though it's hard to fathom this happening twice. If it happened once though, I guess that it is possible.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As mentioned earlier, some news sources reported "snow" in Yonkers New York in 9/2009, but this was also hail:

 

https://nypost.com/2009/07/08/freak-summer-storm-dumps-snow-on-yonkers/

 

That reminds me, Pennsylvania should be on the list as well. I remember reading about snowfalls in the PA highlands during the 19th century. Just did some google searching and found a source (courtesy of Chris Burt):

https://maps.wunderg...tml?entrynum=70

 

 

That's interesting. If it can snow in Pennsylvania in July, it could snow in New York and Vermont as well. It is strange that I can't find any reports for snow in Vermont and New York for the time period, even in the Adirondacks. I'm guessing that it has probably snowed in the Adirondacks every month of the year, at least at one time or another.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’ve seen it snow in late June at Snowshoe, WV.

 

Was it in the mountains above town? The latest official snow at Snowshoe itself is on 5/21/2002 (a trace was reported on 6/7/1977), but sometimes if snow doesn't stick, it might not be in the record books. Do you remember when it was? It would be interesting to note it. 1992 had a frost as late as 6/23; the latest frost there (though records only go back 44 years). There was some precip the next day.

[Phil]

That's interesting. If it can snow in Pennsylvania in July, it could snow in New York and Vermont as well. It is strange that I can't find any reports for snow in Vermont and New York for the time period, even in the Adirondacks. I'm guessing that it has probably snowed in the Adirondacks every month of the year, at least at one time or another.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Was it in the mountains above town? The latest official snow at Snowshoe itself is on 5/21/2002 (a trace was reported on 6/7/1977), but sometimes if snow doesn't stick, it might not be in the record books. Do you remember when it was? It would be interesting to note it. 1992 had a frost as late as 6/23; the latest frost there (though records only go back 44 years). There was some precip the next day.

Yeah, it happened at the Timbers/Snowcrest neighborhood near the summit of the mountain at ~4850ft. I forget the specific year but I’ve seen it happen twice, once in the early 2000s and the other time was in the 2007-2009 timeframe. I know it was late June because we always used to head out there at that time, and stay at the same place.

 

Was definitely snow, temperature was around 40*F. Those big, fat flakes mixed with rain and howling winds as well. Sometimes severe thunderstorms in April/May will transition to snow up there and dump 4-8” in 45mins with lightning, high winds, etc, while areas just 1 mile away will be in the 50s/60s with nothing. It’s truly an amazing microclimate.

[Scott]

I forget the specific year but I’ve seen it happen twice, once in the early 2000s and the other time was in the 2007-2009 timeframe

For the early 2000 one, I'd guess 6/22/2003. Temps in Snowshoe were 46/42 that day with precipitation. It could potentially snow with an increase in altitude.

[wx_statman]

I think it would be wise to discount both the 1882 snowfall in MI/WI and the 1927 snowfall in Indiana. 

[Scott]

I'll take Indiana off the list. I just don't see how it could happen, but it's interesting how many meteorologist accept the report. Perhaps they didn't look at the temperature reports that day.

 

I also wonder about the Pennsylvania reports as well. The temperatures for the 1918 event seem too high. I don't see and reports of temperatures below the 50's.

 

Could hail have been reported as snow?

[Phil]

It wouldn’t shock me if it snowed in the highlands of PA in July back then. The highest elevations of the Appalachians have come pretty close to getting snow even in modern times. Upslope flow/orographic lifting provides both a cooling and moisture source.

[wx_statman]

I'll take Indiana off the list. I just don't see how it could happen, but it's interesting how many meteorologist accept the report. Perhaps they didn't look at the temperature reports that day.

 

I also wonder about the Pennsylvania reports as well. The temperatures for the 1918 event seem too high. I don't see and reports of temperatures below the 50's.

 

Could hail have been reported as snow?

 

It's certainly possible. That seems to have happened a lot back in the day. Still happens a lot today for that matter.

[wx_statman]

It wouldn’t shock me if it snowed in the highlands of PA in July back then. The highest elevations of the Appalachians have come pretty close to getting snow even in modern times. Upslope flow/orographic lifting provides both a cooling and moisture source.

 

I agree that higher parts of PA probably saw legitimate snowfall in July in the old days. It would have been an extremely rare event, but it was certainly plausible in my opinion. 

 

Even in modern times, Coudersport (1,650') saw a high of 52 on July 5, 1979 during a notably cold July airmass that affected the Midwest. Go up to 3,200 feet ASL on Mount Davis, introduce a colder 19th century airmass (feeding off a more persistent, later-lasting snowcover to the north), and bring in steady precip during the morning hours. It may have happened.

[Scott]

I agree that higher parts of PA probably saw legitimate snowfall in July in the old days. 

 

Probably, but the one on 7/2/1918 seems a bit of a stretch.

 

The highest point in Bradford County is 2450 feet and even in 1918 there were many weather stations in the area ranging in elevation of up to 1760 feet, only about 700 feet below the highest elevation in the county.

 

The coldest weather station on that day (Ridgeway) had a high of 73 and a low of 46.  Most stations had lows in the 50's or lower 60's.

 

700 feet doesn't seem enough elevation to produce temperatures cold enough to produce snow, but it can snow at such temperatures on rare occasions.  Perhaps possible, but at least a bit of a stretch.  

 

There weren't enough stations around in 1859 to make a judgement. 

[Phil]

It also depends on conditions aloft. Cold ULLs w/ 850mb temperatures well below zero would still produce highs well into in the 50s or low 60s in July (given the depth of the mixing layer) yet such a scenario could easily produce wet snow with some elevation, cold core convection, and orographic lifting cooling the surface boundary layer.

 

I was driving through Martinsburg during the month of May a few years back (during the 2013-14 period IIRC). It was around 60 degrees with a very hard NW wind (under a deep 500mb trough). A squall then blew through..it started as rain, flipped to sleet/graupel, then flipped to fluffy snow, despite the warm temps.

 

I’ll bet you the ridgetop areas from NY/PA to WV/NC all saw snowfall during July back in the 18th/19th centuries.

[Scott]

It still seems a stretch for the 1918 date, but remotely possible.

 

Anyway, the official record snow for the state of Pennsylvania in June is only a trace (and zero in July and August), but I believe June 1816 did see accumulated snowfall in parts of the state.

 

http://climate.met.psu.edu/data/state/staterecords.php

 

Of course there isn't a weather station on the highest peaks.  

[Phil]

It still seems a stretch, but remotely possible.

 

Anyway, the official record snow for the state of Pennsylvania in June is only a trace (and zero in July and August), but I believe June 1816 did see accumulated snowfall in parts of the state.

 

http://climate.met.psu.edu/data/state/staterecords.php

 

Of course there isn't a weather station on the highest peaks either.

I’ll have to look at the topography at the location in question before I jump to conclusions, but I know this region pretty well...it would not shock me (at all) if locations above ~ 1500ft in W-PA/WV saw snow in July in the 18th/19th centuries.

 

It snows regularly in the late May/early June timeframe down into WV even today. It’s snowed in May at Snowcrest during each of the last 7 years.

 

Nowadays it’s a huge challenge to see snow in July given the warmer climate and broad z-cells/+NAM background state, but back in those waning LIA years, things were quite different.

[Scott]

I’ll have to look at the topography at the location in question before I jump to conclusions, but I know this region pretty well...it would not shock me (at all) if locations above ~ 1500ft in W-PA/WV saw snow in July in the 18th/19th centuries.

 

 

I could see it on the highest peaks on some days, but 7/2/1918 seems a stretch given the records for that day.   1816 is a good candidate for snow in July. 

 

It snows regularly in the late May/early June timeframe down into WV even today. 

 

 

It snows here until mid-June at times, but never in July.  Late May and early June is more common.   

[Scott]

Perhaps this question is too easy, but which US state has it's all time record high in both June and September?

[Scott]

Perhaps this question is too easy, but which US state has it's all time record high in both June and September?

 

The answer was South Carolina for anyone interested.

[Scott]

Here's another question just for fun.   

 

Which locations have glaciers in places that seldom have snow fall?  I can think of a few.  They are outside the US though.  Some are obvious, while some are surprising.  The reasons are different for different locations.