El Nino is Dead. Long Live La Nina.

[Phil]

Well... first of all you are now showing 6/5 above instead of 6/4. On 6/5 the trough did pinch off into a ULL.

 

On 6/4 it was the perfect image of a full West Coast trough.

 

Haha, what? It's still a split flow pattern.

 

Do you understand how to interpret isobars?

[TT-SEA]

Haha, what? It's still a split flow pattern.

 

Do you understand how to interpret isobars?

 

 

I understand that contour lines bending south depict a full West Coast trough on 6/4 that pinched off into a ULL on 6/5.

[Phil]

I am 100% clear that this is a classic image of a full West Coast trough. Don't care what happened the next day.

 

http://s32.postimg.org/pfl3gh639/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

That's a split flow pattern, dude. Note my red markings.

 

Right there you have a big, fat ridge over western Canada, extending into WA:

 

[Phil]

I understand that contour lines bending south depict a full West Coast trough on 6/4 that pinched off into a ULL on 6/5.

So, what do the contours bending north into Canada represent, then, and why are heights above average from Western Canada, into Washington State?

 

Think about this, dude. It's very straightforward stuff.

[TT-SEA]

So, what do the contours bending north into Canada represent, then, and why are heights above average from Western Canada, into Washington State?

 

Think about this, dude. It's very straightforward stuff.

 

 

Height anomalies do not define a trough.   Contour lines define a trough.    

 

There is a deep trough over the West Coast on 6/4... with the axis right along the coast.

 

There is a building ridge offshore that pinches off the trough into a ULL the next day.     But on 6/4 there is a classic "U" shaped trough directly over the West Coast.

[Phil]

Height anomalies do not define a trough. Contour lines define a trough.

 

There is a deep trough over the West Coast on 6/4... with the axis right along the coast.

 

There is a building ridge offshore that pinches off the trough into a ULL the next day. But on 6/4 there is a classic "U" shaped trough directly over the West Coast.

Constantly repeating falsehoods doesn't make them true. There's no "deep trough" anywhere in the vicinity of the west coast on that image, dude. Just a shortwave sliding into a ridge.

 

I know you see this.

[TT-SEA]

Constantly repeating falsehoods doesn't make them true. There's no "deep trough" anywhere in the vicinity of the west coast on that image, dude. Just a shortwave sliding into a ridge.

 

I know you see this.

 

 

How can you not see a gigantic "U" over the west coast with the bottom around San Diego?

 

http://s32.postimg.org/z4cl3zadh/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

[Phil]

How can you not see a gigantic "U" over the west coast with the bottom around San Diego?

 

http://s32.postimg.org/z4cl3zadh/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

I do see the "U", the difference is I know how to interpret it.

[TT-SEA]

I do see the "U", the difference is I know how to interpret it.

There is no interpretation necessary for a "U".

 

It defines the trough on that day. Don't worry about what happens the next day.

[Phil]

There is no interpretation necessary for a "U".

 

It defines the trough on that day. Don't worry about what happens the next day.

Well, there's your problem.

[Phil]

This is a decent illustration:

 

http://weatherblog.nbcactionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Split1.jpg

[TT-SEA]

This is a decent illustration:

 

http://weatherblog.nbcactionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Split1.jpg

 

 

I am very tired of this discussion.   

 

Its like arguing in an alternate reality.   A trough is a trough.   Anyone can identify a classic trough on a map.   And 6/4 was a classic looking West Coast trough.   

 

The image above is a totally different day with a much less defined West Coast trough.    In fact... I would say that is not a trough at all out here since the 500mb contours bend way north over us.    That is a weak storm diving under a large ridge across the western half of the US.

[Phil]

I am very tired of this discussion.

 

Its like arguing in an alternate reality. A trough is a trough. Anyone can identify a classic trough on a map. And 6/4 was a classic looking West Coast trough.

 

The image above is a totally different day with a much less defined West Coast trough. In fact... I would say that is not a trough at all out here since the 500mb contours bend way north over us. That is a weak storm diving under a large ridge across the western half of the US.

It's the exact thing, dude. Remove the colors and you have this below. Visualize the streamflow here:

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.vbGm270xPc.gif

 

This is split flow, AKA a Rex Block.

[TT-SEA]

It's the same look, dude. Remove the colors and you have this:

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.vbGm270xPc.gif

 

 

Not the same.   That is a much better defined West Coast trough about to pinch off into a ULL.   

[Phil]

Not the same. That is a much better defined West Coast trough about to pinch off into a ULL.

There's no difference there, just more contours.

[Phil]

Actual longwave trough vs shortwave under split flow.

 

The first image depicts a true longwave trough over the Western US, on July, 1st, 2010. The second image is your select date of June, 4th, 2015, which depicts a split flow around a ridge/rex block.

 

Legitimate Longwave Trough

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.giqt2jl7Xo.gif

 

 

Shortwave/Split Flow Around Ridge/Rex Block

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.TyaWCa_Hxq.gif

[Phil]

This should be as clear as day to you.

[TT-SEA]

This should be as clear as day to you.

 

 

 

Troughs of all shapes and sizes... but they are still troughs.  

 

6/4 was a West Coast trough as well.  

[Phil]

 

Troughs of all shapes and sizes... but they are still troughs.

 

6/4 was a West Coast trough as well.

It was a shortwave under a large scale ridge, dude.

 

Unless you're referring to shortwaves as "troughs", which by scientific definition, they technically are, however most forecasters don't refer to them in that manner, and they're not to be confused with actual longwave troughs that represent the pattern as a whole.

[TT-SEA]

It was a shortwave under a large scale ridge, dude.

 

Unless you're referring to shortwaves as "troughs", which by scientific definition, they technically are, however they're not to be confused with actual longwave troughs.

 

 

Great... you finally agreed.   You had no other choice because there was a West Coast trough on 6/4.

[Phil]

Great... you finally agreed. You had no other choice because there was a West Coast trough on 6/4.

No, you're just not very smart. They're referred to as "shortwaves" precisely to distinguish them from actual longwave troughs. Do you understand this? It's reality. Actuality. Truth. Fact. Okay?

 

You were sitting under a ridge, dude. There was a ULL to your south. It can precipitate under a ridge.

[TT-SEA]

No, you're just not very smart. They're referred to as "shortwaves" precisely to distinguish them from actual longwave troughs. Do you understand this? It's reality. Actuality. Truth. Fact. Okay?

You were sitting under a ridge, dude. There was a ULL to your south. It can precipitate under a ridge.

We were squarely under a West Coast trough that day.

[Phil]

We were squarely under a West Coast trough that day.

It was a shortwave imbedded under a ridge/rex block. That's a scientifically demonstrable fact.

 

That's why the jet stream was riding way into Canada. That's why 500mb heights were above average. That's why it was a warmer than average day across most of the PNW.

[TT-SEA]

It was a shortwave imbedded under a ridge/rex block. That's a scientifically demonstrable fact.

 

 

Great... it was also a West Coast trough.   The contour lines tell the story.  

[Phil]

Great... it was also a West Coast trough. The contour lines tell the story.

You were sitting under a longwave ridge, regardless. That's what we were discussing last night.

 

The jet stream was well to your north, up in northern Canada. You experienced the peripheral effects of a cutoff/ULL.

[TT-SEA]

You were sitting under a longwave ridge, regardless. That's what we were discussing last night.

 

The jet stream was well to your north, up in northern Canada. You experienced the peripheral effects of a cutoff/ULL.

 

 

This is the longest discussion in history over something that is obvious.   

 

This is not a ridge over us... this is a West Coast trough. 

 

http://s32.postimg.org/pfl3gh639/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

[Phil]

This is the longest discussion in history over something that is obvious.

 

This is not a ridge over us... this is a West Coast trough.

 

http://s32.postimg.org/pfl3gh639/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

Nope, you were sitting under a longwave ridge/rex block, with a cutoff low/ULL to your south.

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.TyaWCa_Hxq.gif

 

This debate will continue forever if you can't figure this out. I'll just get more persistent. I'm not giving up on you.

[GHweatherChris]

Unless you want to call shortwaves and cutoff ULLs "troughs", which most forecasters do not, then you're not talking about a trough. Your image depicts a shortwave detaching from the primary streamflow (ridge over the west) becoming a cutoff low/ULL.

 

From your link:

 

http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/fall12/atmo336/lectures/sec1/p500mb.html

 

 

Your bolded part actually proves Tim right, shortwave troughs, a trough is a trough no matter the strength.

 

Argument over.

 

See, that was easy.

[TT-SEA]

Your bolded part actually proves Tim right, shortwave troughs, a trough is a trough not matter the strength.

 

Argument over.

 

See, that was easy.

 

Thanks Chris.

[GHweatherChris]

I cannot believe I just sided with Tim, SMH lol.

[TT-SEA]

I cannot believe I just sided with Tim, SMH lol.

 

Its just so obvious.    

[GHweatherChris]

Its just so obvious.

You know it, I know it, everyone knows it but 1.

[Phil]

Your bolded part actually proves Tim right, shortwave troughs, a trough is a trough no matter the strength.

 

Argument over.

 

See, that was easy.

Wrong. They're completely different physical phenomena, and "strength" is irrelevant. An actual longwave trough defines/is represented through large scale meridional streamflow. A cutoff low is detached from the parent streamflow, and can exist under/within a ridge.

 

Otherwise, hurricanes, closed lows, and mesoscale convective systems are all "troughs" in the same manner as an actual longwave trough.

[GHweatherChris]

Wrong. They're completely different physical phenomena, and "strength" is irrelevant. An actual longwave trough defines/is represented through large scale meridional streamflow. A cutoff low is detached from the parent streamflow, and can exist under/within a ridge.

 

Otherwise, hurricanes, closed lows, and mesoscale convective systems are all "troughs" in the same manner as an actual longwave trough.

A trough is a trough, pretty simple.

 

Shortwave troughs are still troughs, which was mentioned in your bolded part..

 

See, I am not even using science to prove reality.

[GHweatherChris]

Trough...

[Phil]

Give this a read, it will help:

 

http://www.wxonline.info/topics/waves.html

[GHweatherChris]

Give this a read, it will help:

 

http://www.wxonline.info/topics/waves.html

Conversation had nothing to do with meteorologists, just because they tend not to use the term does not mean it isn't a trough when there is a trough.

 

And the term trough is mentioned several times in that article, further proving you wrong more and more.

 

I bet you saw plenty of troughs when you lived near the top of the cascades.

[Phil]

A trough is a trough, pretty simple.

 

Shortwave troughs are still troughs, which was mentioned in your bolded part..

 

See, I am not even using science to prove reality.

Apples are Oranges!

 

Fingers are Toes!

 

Comets are Asteroids!

 

Chicken is Turkey!

[Phil]

Conversation had nothing to do with meteorologists, just because they tend not to use the term does not mean it isn't a trough when there is a trough.

Read it, educate yourself.

 

A trough defines/is expressed through streamflow, closed lows are detached from streamflow. There's a reason scientists distinguish cutoff lows and shortwaves from longwave troughs.

[Phil]

Its just so obvious.

Apparently not to you.