El Nino is Dead. Long Live La Nina.

[Phil]

For god's sake it was a summer trough. It's not brain surgery.

 

Then let's call every area low pressure center a "trough". Hurricanes, cutoff lows, shortwaves, ULLs, the whole enchilada. Right?

 

This is ridiculous.

[TT-SEA]

Then let's call every d**n low pressure center a "trough". Hurricanes, cutoff lows, shortwaves, ULLs, the whole enchilada!

Nobody said that.

 

But that map shows a full West Coast trough.

[Phil]

Nobody said that.

 

But that map shows a full West Coast trough.

No, it depicts a shortwave detaching from the westerly streamflow, flowing around the western ridge, becoming a cutoff low/ULL.

 

Again, technically you can call cutoff lows/ULLs and shortwaves "troughs", if you want. That's pretty silly, though.

[TT-SEA]

No, it depicts a shortwave detaching from the westerly streamflow, flowing around the western ridge, becoming a cutoff low/ULL.

Again, technically can call cutoff lows/ULLs and shortwaves "troughs", if you want. That's pretty silly, though.

Its a full West Coast trough in that image.

[Phil]

Wrote this over an hour ago:

 

If you're sitting under a higher than average heights with streamflow biased poleward, you're under a ridge, regardless of any shortwave troughs or ULLs that may permeate it.

So, are we calling shortwaves and cutoff lows "troughs"? Just want to be clear on this, because last night, we certainly weren't.

[Phil]

Its a full West Coast trough in that image.

No, it's a shortwave, becoming a cutoff low/ULL. You're under a (longwave) ridge, see the heights and jet stream to your north.

[Phil]

Any meteorologist would all this a ridge (with an imbedded detaching shortwave).

 

Here's your "full latitude west coast trough".

 

Rolled forward one day:

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.olS3o32ngk.gif

 

Rolled forward two days:

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.66p73je4E8.gif

[Phil]

Here's the entire 5/29 - 6/5 period. This is what's called a "ridge". Or technically, a "split flow" pattern.

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.aoTLwsOS1g.gif

[Phil]

Also, where did I say a trough is always defined by heights relative normal?

 

I'm not sure where you pulled that one from.

[Front Ranger]

June 1-4, 2015 featured a significant trough over the PNW,   

 

End of story.

 

You want to argue that the sky is green and I am stupid for not seeing it??    

 

It was a trough, but a fairly weak one. Not "significant".

[Phil]

It was a trough, but a fairly weak one.

I'd just call it a cutoff low or shortwave, riding under a ridge. It wasn't incorporated into the primary streamflow at all.

 

I'm not even sure why this is being debated. We went from debating whether or not last year's pattern was similar to today's, to arguing over a shortwave feature on one day.

[Front Ranger]

I'd just call it a cutoff low or shortwave, riding under a ridge. It wasn't incorporated into the primary streamflow at all.

 

I'm not even sure why this is being debated. We went from debating whether or not last year's pattern was similar to today's, to arguing over a shortwave feature on one day.

 

Yeah, I mean the trough itself was really more in CA than the PNW, but whatever. I'd just call it a very weak trough for the PNW, regardless of how much rain it delivered.

[TT-SEA]

Also, where did I say a trough is always defined by heights relative normal?

 

I'm not sure where you pulled that one from.

 

You spent hours last night showing me maps of that period displaying the 500mb height anomalies.

 

You spent hours telling me the anomaly is the important part... not the absolute heights.    

 

Now relative to normal does not matter and you did not say it?   

 

 

It was a full West Coast trough that eventually pinched off into a ULL over Socal.

 

This is a full West Coast trough.    The contour lines tell the entire story.    Its a perfect depiction of a full West Coast trough in this image.

 

http://s32.postimg.org/pfl3gh639/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

[Deweydog]

I have no independent recollection of this trough. Makes me feel bad about myself.

[TT-SEA]

I have no independent recollection of this trough. Makes me feel bad about myself.

Tyler reported .94 by June 3rd... one of the best rain events of the summer in your area.   Lots of lightning as well across the PNW:

 

 

0.94" already this month.  Not bad at all.  I'm glad everything is getting watered before the upcoming heat.

 

9.2 degree temperature range so far this month.

 

 

 

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2015/06/unusual-early-season-lightning-but-few.html

[Phil]

You spent hours last night showing me maps of that period displaying the 500mb height anomalies.

Yeah, because we were discussing patterns of ridging and troughing, not individual shortwaves/ULLs on a few random days.

 

Remember?

 

You spent hours telling me the anomaly is the important part... not the absolute heights.

Exactly. Unless you're calling shortwaves and random ULLs "troughing", a large scale positive 500mb height anomaly represents the presence of a ridge. Always.

 

Now relative to normal does not matter and you did not say it?

What the hell are you talking about? Stop trying to spin reality, it's not working.

 

It was a full West Coast trough that eventually pinched off into a ULL over Socal.

Wrong, it was a shortwave that pinched off into a cutoff/ULL because the parent streamflow ride north into Canada along the periphery of the ridge.

 

Do you know why ULLs "pinch off"?

 

This is a full West Coast trough. The contour lines tell the entire story. Its a perfect depiction of a full West Coast trough in this image.

No, it isn't.

[TT-SEA]

Phil... you just asked where you said anything about relation to normal.

 

You spent hours talking about the definition of 500mb troughs being based on relation to climatological normals.   

 

Now I am "spinning" things?    

 

It was a full West Coast trough in that image and you know it.   You are spinning round and round.   The contours lines define the trough... nothing else is needed to define trough.   Its a perfect trough.

[Phil]

Tim, do you know why shortwaves/ULLs "pinch off" into cutoff lows?

 

Hint: The term "cutoff" implies being "cut off" from the parent streamflow. Why would that happen? Think about it.

[TT-SEA]

For god's sake it was a summer trough.  It's not brain surgery.  

 

Thanks again Matt.   

[TT-SEA]

Tim, do you know why shortwaves/ULLs "pinch off" into cutoff lows?

 

Hint: The term "cutoff" implies being "cut off" from the parent streamflow. Why would that happen? Think about it.

 

 

Who cares?   It was a trough in that image.  I understand that it did cut off into a ULL after that image.   

 

But it was a full West Coast trough in that image.    Contour lines tell the entire story.

[Phil]

Phil... you just asked where you said anything about relation to normal.

No, asked you where I said that a trough is defined by heights relative to normal.

 

Nice try. That was your claim, either back it up or retract it.

 

You spent hours talking about the definition of 500mb troughs being based on relation to climatological normals.

Where did I said this? Link me up.

 

Now I am "spinning" things?

Yeah, either that or you lack basic reading comprehension skills.

 

It was a full West Coast trough in that image and you know it. You are spinning round and round. The contours lines define the trough... nothing else is needed to define trough. Its a perfect trough.

No it wasn't, you stupid s**t.

[Phil]

Who cares? It was a trough in that image. I understand that it did cut off into a ULL after that image.

Who cares? Why would it cut off? Where did the streamflow go?

 

Did it magically vanish?

 

But it was a full West Coast trough in that image. Contour lines tell the entire story.

It was a shortwave. Sorry, can't change reality.

[TT-SEA]

It was a trough and contour lines tell the story. You are wrong and will never admit it... but rather resort to name calling.

[Phil]

Yes it was and contour lines tell the story. You are wrong and will never admit but rather resort to name calling.

Nope, it was a shortwave that, upon encountering a large scale ridge, became cutoff from the parent streamflow. For that reason.

[TT-SEA]

Nope, it was a shortwave that, upon encountering a large scale ridge, became cutoff from the parent streamflow. For that reason.

No more.

 

It is the classic image of a 500mb trough by every defintion. Contour lines are all you need to see.

[Phil]

See below. Large scale ridge, shortwave cutting off from the parent flow riding above the ridge into Canada.

 

I guess all split flow patterns are troughy, then?

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.LXe__uWfnx.gif

[TT-SEA]

See below. Large scale ridge, shortwave cutting off from the parent flow riding above the ridge into Canada:

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.LXe__uWfnx.gif

 

 

You can present as many maps as you want... but this image is the classic definition of a 500mb trough based on contour lines.   No debate.   

 

http://s32.postimg.org/pfl3gh639/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

[Phil]

Here are the anomalies at the same time.

 

Troughy, right? Haha.

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.VVlgMdjfX7.gif

[Phil]

You can present as many maps as you want... but this image is the classic definition of a 500mb trough based on contour lines. No debate.

 

http://s32.postimg.org/pfl3gh639/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif

The jet stream is riding the ridge into Canada. That's why the shortwave becomes a cutoff low.

 

It's a split flow pattern, dude.

[TT-SEA]

The jet stream is riding the ridge into Canada. That's why the shortwave becomes a cutoff low.

 

It's a split flow pattern, dude.

 

 

Its a classic image of a 500mb trough.      Don't care what happened afterwards.   

 

That image is a classic full West Coast 500mb trough.  

 

You are too deep in the forest wandering around trying to convince me of something else... but is not debatable and the fact that its a trough is readily apparent by just glancing at the image.    The contours lines define the trough.  

[Phil]

Its a classic image of a 500mb trough. Don't care what happened afterwards.

 

That image is a classic full West Coast 500mb trough.

 

You are too deep in the forest wandering around trying to convince me of something that is not debatable.

Well, you're just flat out wrong. No other way to put it.

[Phil]

Does this help?

 

[TT-SEA]

Well, you're just flat out wrong. No other way to put it.

 

Sure.   

 

When the height contours bend strongly to the south, (as in the diagram below), it is called a TROUGH. Strong troughs are typically preceded by stormy weather and colder air at the surface.

 

 

http://www.indiana.edu/~geog109/topics/10_Forces&Winds/sfc_trough1.gif

 

 

Its the definition of a trough and its so obvious and simple that you must just be trying to be difficult.  

[TT-SEA]

Does this help?

 

image.jpeg

 

 

That image shows a classic West Coast trough.  

 

Contour lines dip to the south forming a trough.     

[Phil]

Right.

 

http://www.indiana.edu/~geog109/topics/10_Forces&Winds/sfc_trough1.gif

 

 

Its the definition of a trough and its so obvious and simple that you must just be trying to be difficult.

Are you too stupid to see the difference between that image and this image? The contours are not "bending south" in this image below, they're bending north.

 

You need to learn how to decipher 500mb streamflow.

[TT-SEA]

Are you too stupid to see the difference between that image and this image? The contours are not "bending south" in this image below, they're bending north.

 

You need to learn how to decipher 500mb streamflow.

They are bending south over the West Coast. Bottoming out around San Diego.

 

Classic 500mb trough over the West Coast. Axis right along the coast actually.

 

Love the name calling! Charming.

[Phil]

That image shows a classic West Coast trough.

 

Contour lines dip to the south forming a trough.

 

 

No, this is an example of a real west coast trough, back on 6/30/11. The pattern on 6/5/15 is a ridge/split flow pattern,

 

See the difference?

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.uTuYkwme17.gif

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.KHOULyiQ1Y.gif

[TT-SEA]

No, this is an example of a real west coast trough, back on 6/30/11. The pattern on 6/5/15 is a ridge/split flow pattern,

 

See the difference?

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.uTuYkwme17.gif

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.KHOULyiQ1Y.gif

 

 

 

Well... first of all you are now showing 6/5 above instead of 6/4.   On 6/5 the trough did pinch off into a ULL.   

 

On 6/4 it was the perfect image of a full West Coast trough.

 

[Phil]

If that doesn't make it 100% clear to you, then nothing will.

[TT-SEA]

If that doesn't make it 100% clear to you, then nothing will.

 

 

I am 100% clear that this is a classic image of a full West Coast trough.   Don't care what happened the next day.  

 

http://s32.postimg.org/pfl3gh639/compday_OQVLHr_MF24.gif