2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Jesse]

And no, "it is what it is" is no defense for what you said. You made some false statements about me. You can't back them up. And your little opinion of me doesn't make a reputation. 

 

Little opinion?? Ad hominem! AD HOMINEM!!!!!! You just broke this thread's Geneva pact.

[Guest Sounder]

What were the start & end dates of your deployment?

I'm not particularly interested in doxxing myself to you simply to prove a point, but approximately August 2014 through September 2015 I was overseas.

[Front Ranger]

Little opinion?? Ad hominem! AD HOMINEM!!!!!! You just broke this thread's Geneva pact.

 

You can't answer my questions, and you can't defend your accusations. This is the result.

[Front Ranger]

Go for it, that hasn't stopped you before.

 

This is a pretty open ended OT thread. 

 

Just stop with the needless attacks. That's all I'm asking. Why make this into a stupid war of words where we're just going back and forth with insults towards each other, instead of actual grown-up conversation?

 

I think we're better than that.

[Phil]

Bad analogy. Obama wasn't born outside of the US again and again, yet venomously threatening all who doubted his citizenship, only to eventually realize the error in his ways and decide to actually be born in the US to set the record straight.

 

Not even possible. Well, maybe if you believe in the multiverse.

I made up a fake story in my teenage years and got myself trapped in it. That doesn't make me a pathological liar, especially since I haven't lied here since then. I had actually wanted to reveal it for years but didn't get around to it fast enough.

 

Nice spin, though.

[Front Ranger]

Look at my edit. I've had much better dialogue with others who have similar leanings to your own. How is that possible?

 

If it's all about my bad behavior, then how are tenochtitlan and I able to have civil, productive conversations? Feel free to take a stab at that, Jesse.

[Deweydog]

Look at my edit. I've had much better dialogue with others who have similar leanings to your own. How is that possible?

You have taken on a pretty holier than thou persona of late.

 

Could be because you are, but I doubt it.

[Phil]

Just stop with the needless attacks. That's all I'm asking. Why make this into a stupid war of words where we're just going back and forth with insults towards each other, instead of actual grown-up conversation?

 

I think we're better than that.

Yeah, it's getting old fast.

 

For the record, I don't see you as "fake" objective. That implies at least some degree of intent. We're all biased here, and our attempts to be objective can reflect that bias. I know that I'm certainly biased and/of unobjective at times.

[Front Ranger]

You have taken on a pretty holier than thou persona of late.

 

Could be because you are, but I doubt it.

 

Explain. In what way? By trying to keep the conversation focused on actual reason and logic, instead of partisan hysterics and ad hominem attacks?

 

I'd rather be the grown up in the room at times and get labeled "holier than thou" than the rabble rouser going around throwing personal insults at everyone. Sorry.

[Jesse]

You can't answer my questions, and you can't defend your accusations. This is the result.

 

We've gone over this again and again. You know what I think. I have explained many times why I feel the way I do about your posting style. 

[Phil]

You have taken on a pretty holier than thou persona of late.

 

Could be because you are, but I doubt it.

There's a difference between pointing out bias, and throwing insults, character attacks, and unsubstantiated accusations.

[Front Ranger]

Yeah, it's getting old fast.

 

For the record, I don't see you as "fake" objective. That implies at least some degree of intent. We're all biased here, and our attempts to be objective can reflect that bias. I know that I'm certainly biased and/of unobjective at times.

 

Like I said on here recently, we all have biases. That goes without saying. 

 

So, we can focus all our time and efforts on here into trying to nail each other to those biases, or we can have real conversation and debate that doesn't revolve around subjective nonsense. 

[Jesse]

It was actually Fred that outed my IP and street address, IIRC.

 

Sure, but Tim played a big part in getting the investigations rolling. It's a shame he doesn't have more pull in DC right now.

[TT-SEA]

It was actually Tim's dogged nature that eventually outed him. I forget the exact details but he discovered something didn't add up about the mountain top ski area address at which Phil had claimed to live for years ( I think comparing pictures Phil had provided of his house with google earth imagery or something along those lines). After that everything else quickly fell like dominoes and a public coming clean/apology was issued, which was admittedly big of Phil. I honestly figured he would disappear forever once everything came out.

 

Years of being called every name in the book when I challenged him on his residences.    He was vicious and relentless.   He was so adamant that I was completely crazy for doubting him. I think we all knew his Skykomish / Snoqulamie Pass / Stampede Pass stuff was BS but I was also sure the McHenry stuff was a lie.  

 

It was after his reporting of 90-degree dewpoints at an elevation of 3,000 feet in Western Maryland that I decided to prove it.   I took what information I knew based on what he told us and pieced it together with free information on the internet.   Once I narrowed down his actual city of residence... then I used Google Street View to find his house based on the pictures he has posted over the years.    It was sort of a mission once I got started after being called so many names!   I knew I was right from the start... but had to prove it.  

 

Maybe this is what the press will do to Trump!   He is certainly issuing a challenge to them.  

[Jesse]

Like I said on here recently, we all have biases. That goes without saying. 

 

So, we can focus all our time and efforts on here into trying to nail each other to those biases, or we can have real conversation and debate that doesn't revolve around subjective nonsense. 

 

I miss the yawning emoji.

[Front Ranger]

We've gone over this again and again. You know what I think. I have explained many times why I feel the way I do about your posting style. 

 

Then why did you feel the need to go on the attack again? 

 

You've crossed the line several times recently with the name-calling and personal insults. Regardless of how you feel about my "posting style", it's uncalled for and quite frankly, immature. 

[Jesse]

Years of being called every name in the book when I challenged him on his residences.    He was vicious and relentless.   He was so adamant that I was completely insane. I think we all knew his Skykomish / Snoqulamie Pass / Stampede Pass stuff was BS but I was also sure the McHenry stuff was a lie.  

 

It was after his reporting of 90-degree dewpoints at an elevation of 3,000 feet in Western Maryland that I decided to prove it.   I took what information I knew of based on what he told us and pieced it together with free information on the internet.   Once I narrowed down his actual city of residence... then I used Google Street View to find his house based on the pictures he has posted over the years.    It was sort of a mission after I got started... after being called so many names.  I knew I was right but had to prove it.  

 

Maybe this what the press will do to Trump!   He is certainly issuing a challenge to them.  

 

It's funny. I just made a similar analogy.

[Jesse]

Then why did you feel the need to go on the attack again? 

 

I'm sorry, but you've crossed the line several times recently with the name-calling and personal insults. Regardless of how you feel about my "posting style", it's uncalled for and quite frankly, immature. 

 

I don't know. Because you keep doing it and it really puts a damper on intelligent conversation here?

[Front Ranger]

I don't know. Because you keep doing it and it really puts a damper on intelligent conversation here?

 

Well, you made false, unsubstantiated accusations about me. And you can't answer a simple question: if I'm the problem, not you, how come I am able to have much better dialogue with people like tenochitlan? Even happ.

 

If you can't explain that, you have nothing to stand on with your claims about me. Put up or shut up.

[Jesse]

There's a difference between pointing out bias, and throwing insults, character attacks, and unsubstantiated accusations.

 

I'm sorry man, but there is so much hypocrisy dripping off of this comment that the radar just picked up some strong echoes by my laptop.

[Phil]

Years of being called every name in the book when I challenged him on his residences. He was vicious and relentless. He was so adamant that I was completely crazy for doubting him. I think we all knew his Skykomish / Snoqulamie Pass / Stampede Pass stuff was BS but I was also sure the McHenry stuff was a lie.

 

It was after his reporting of 90-degree dewpoints at an elevation of 3,000 feet in Western Maryland that I decided to prove it. I took what information I knew of based on what he told us and pieced it together with free information on the internet. Once I narrowed down his actual city of residence... then I used Google Street View to find his house based on the pictures he has posted over the years. It was sort of a mission once I got started after being called so many names! I knew I was right from the start... but had to prove it.

 

Maybe this is what the press will do to Trump! He is certainly issuing a challenge to them.

Speaking of which, I may actually be purchasing a small place up in Snowshoe, WV this Fall. Will probably rent it out most of the year, but I need a midsummer "safe space" at this point. If I do, I'll be sure to send you the pictures and documents to prove it, just to avoid any questions.

 

At the very least, I'm moving farther up-county next Fall. Need to get my arse outside the Beltway, ASAP.

[Jesse]

Well, you made false, unsubstantiated accusations about me. And you can't answer a simple question: if I'm the problem, not you, how come I am able to have much better dialogue with people like tenochitlan? Even happ.

 

If you can't explain that, you have nothing to stand on with your claims about me. Put up or shut up.

 

Tenochitlan liked the comments I made about your posting style that you are taking so much issue with. He agrees with my take. He is probably just a little more tactful.

 

Look, I stand by my observations. I will try to tone down the names (deceitful weasel is more colorful than anything IMO), but until you change your approach I will continue be honest with my take on it.

[Phil]

I'm sorry man, but there is so much hypocrisy dripping off of this comment that the radar just picked up some strong echos by my laptop.

I need to work on it too. Also, I never initiate said exchanges.

[Front Ranger]

I'm sorry man, but there is so much hypocrisy dripping off of this comment that the radar just picked up some strong echos by my laptop.

 

Yeah, that's what happens when you spend all your time trying to focus on each other's biases. Hypocrisy-pa-looza!

 

Again, this stuff just goes in circles. Pointless.

[Jesse]

Yeah, that's what happens when you spend all your time trying to focus on each other's biases. Hypocrisy-pa-looza!

 

Again, this stuff just goes in circles. Pointless.

 

The thing is I don't. It mostly comes up with you. Probably because you spend so much time and effort trying to come off like you aren't.

[Front Ranger]

Tenochitlan liked the comments I made about your posting style that you are taking so much issue with. He agrees with my take. He is probably just a little more tactful.

 

Look, I stand by my observations. I will try to tone down the names (deceitful weasel is more colorful than anything IMO), but until you change your approach I will continue be honest with my take on it.

 

You realize that people liking comments in this thread almost always is a reflection of their politics, right?  Birds of a feather like to s**t together!  

 

Saying I have been dishonest and deceitful is simple not true. Integrity matters to me. I've been on this forum a long time and have always been honest, so I do take that personal. You may feel that way, but until you can actually provide evidence of deceit or dishonesty on my part, you are just making baseless insults and trying to smear my reputation.

[Front Ranger]

The thing is I don't. It mostly comes up with you. Probably because you spend so much time and effort trying to come off like you aren't.

 

Only because you've put me on the defensive so much lately. 

 

Another classic intellectually dishonest debate tactic: keep repeating something about your opponent over and over until they are spending so much time talking about it, it seems true. We see this in politics A LOT.

[Jesse]

You realize that people liking comments in this thread almost always is a reflection of their politics, right?  Birds of a feather like to s**t together! 

 

Saying I have been dishonest and deceitful is simple not true. Integrity matters to me, I've been on this forum a long time and have always been honest, so I do take that personal. You may feel that way, but until you can actually provide evidence of deceit or dishonesty on my part, you are just making baseless insults. 

 

That's the thing. This isn't a courtroom. I've observed your posting style on the political side for the last year or more enough to build my own opinion. I am not going to waste my time going back and finding a few dozen posts to back it up. I don't have to. If you don't like it you can just stop responding to me.

[Front Ranger]

That's the thing. This isn't a courtroom. I've observed your posting style on the political side for the last year or more enough to build my own opinion. I am not going to waste my time going back and finding a few dozen posts to back it up. I don't have to. If you don't like it you can just stop responding to me.

 

This isn't a courtroom, but using evidence is always helpful. 

 

Making baseless accusations is not. If you call me dishonest and deceitful, you will need to provide more than just "I've observed you".

 

Honestly, I think you just get butt hurt when I call you out on stuff, and instead of confronting my actual points, you take it personal and resort to character attacks. That's where this started, in my opinion.

[Jesse]

Only because you've put me on the defensive so much lately. 

 

Another classic intellectually dishonest debate tactic: keep repeating something about your opponent over and over until they are spending so much time talking about it, it seems true. We see this in politics A LOT.

 

I agree that we see this a ton in politics. It is a cornerstone of Trump's methodology. That isn't really my aim here though. I am simply pointing out something I and others notice about your posting style when you do it. It's usually your response that draws it out into a huge shitstorm.

 

Notice I stopped saying I don't respect you and instead am saying I don't respect your posting style. I am trying to change my approach here. I think you seem like a pretty good guy overall, but you also have an extreme tendency to nitpick and argue technicalities and semantics. I think you use these tactics to muddy up arguments, especially ones you don't like, and I think it's intellectually dishonest.

[Front Ranger]

I agree that we see this a ton in politics. It is a cornerstone of Trump's methodology. That isn't really my aim here though. I am simply pointing out something I and others notice about your posting style when you do it. It's usually your response that draws it out into a huge shitstorm.

 

Notice I stopped saying I don't respect you and instead am saying I don't respect your posting style. I am trying to change my approach here. I think you seem like a pretty good guy overall, but you also have an extreme tendency to nitpick and argue technicalities and semantics. I think you use these tactics to muddy up arguments, and I think it's intellectually dishonest.

 

But pretty much every time you've tried to give an example of a "technicality" or "semantics", it really wasn't. It was just a point you didn't agree with, so you wanted to minimize it.

 

And I appreciate you cutting out the "I don't respect you", but you're still calling me deceitful and dishonest. 

 

Just repeating this stuff over and over doesn't get us anywhere.

[Jesse]

But pretty much every time you've tried to give an example of a "technicality" or "semantics", it really wasn't. It was just a point you didn't agree with, so you wanted to minimize it.

 

Just repeating this stuff over and over doesn't get us anywhere.

 

You are right that this is getting us nowhere, and it does feel like we are going in circles.

 

Going forward, I will do my best to show you more respect on a personal level. But if I have issues with your approach to "debating" I am still going to call you out. Does that sound good?

[Deweydog]

Explain. In what way? By trying to keep the conversation focused on actual reason and logic, instead of partisan hysterics and ad hominem attacks?

 

I'd rather be the grown up in the room at times and get labeled "holier than thou" than the rabble rouser going around throwing personal insults at everyone. Sorry.

You don't have to apologize. It's just bound to be a hot button issue, especially when your rationalistic wisdom is clearly heavy on one side of the argument.

[Guest Sounder]

Can I just say that I really don't like any of you even a little bit? Thx

 

Maybe Jesse if he weren't a cold anomaly loving Bernie-bro, but sadly he's not.

[Tenochtitlan]

Can I just say that I really don't like any of you even a little bit? Thx

 

Maybe Jesse if he weren't a cold anomaly loving Bernie-bro, but sadly he's not.

Why are you here if you don't like anyone here?

[Guest Sounder]

Why are you here if you don't like anyone here?

I'm a bit of a masochist I suppose.

[Front Ranger]

You don't have to apologize. It's just bound to be a hot button issue, especially when your rationalistic wisdom is clearly heavy on one side of the argument.

 

I think it seems more that way than it really is due to two factors.

 

1. It's my comments more on one "side" that get the ire of the Jesses and Tims of the world, so that's what's noticed more. I make a lot of comments/observations that would be seen by some as more balanced, but they usually get ignored. And so, forgotten.

 

2. When Jim or Money make a post, it's almost always jumped on immediately. As Jesse pointed out, I haven't been on here as much as some of you lately. I could easily critique Jim's statements more, sure, but I'd mostly be repeating the same points others have already made and just piling on. I usually try to look for new angles that haven't been hammered on already.

[Jesse]

Can I just say that I really don't like any of you even a little bit? Thx

 

Maybe Jesse if he weren't a cold anomaly loving Bernie-bro, but sadly he's not.

 

Hey I meant to say it earlier, but thank you for your service. No one else mentioned that.

[Front Ranger]

You are right that this is getting us nowhere, and it does feel like we are going in circles.

 

Going forward, I will do my best to show you more respect on a personal level. But if I have issues with your approach to "debating" I am still going to call you out. Does that sound good?

 

Hey, I have no problem getting called out for flaws in logic, reason, or fact. Feel free to point those out. 

 

But I'd appreciate you not calling me names and things like "deceitful", yes. That sounds good.

[Jesse]

I think it seems more that way than it really is due to two factors.

 

1. It's my comments more on one "side" that get the ire of the Jesses and Tims of the world, so that's what's noticed more. I make a lot of comments/observations that would be seen by some as more balanced, but they usually get ignored. And so, forgotten.

 

2. When Jim or Money make a post, it's almost always jumped on immediately. As Jesse pointed out, I haven't been on here as much as some of you lately. I could easily critique Jim's statements more, sure, but I'd mostly be repeating the same points others have already made and just piling on. I usually try to look for new angles that haven't been hammered on already.

 

This kind of stuff just makes you come off wiggly. Which is basically what you are trying to say you aren't, I think....