Polite Politics

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Of course the founders believed in representative government, not direct democracy. Many of them feared the mob rule of a pure democratic system. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

The world could have been a very different place today if the mothers of Charles Darwin and Karl Marx decided to get abortions.

[Iceresistance]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

A republic?

That actually had been done before. Multiple times, in fact.

I know there have been Republics before like Rome, but this? I don't think that was ever done like that before.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Just now, Iceresistance said:

I know there have been Republics before like Rome, but this? I don't think that was ever done like that before.

The establishing of every sovereign country for the first time is a one-off.

[Iceresistance]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

The establishing of every sovereign country for the first time is a one-off.

Without the complete change of the constitution or the type of government before? Rome had several government changes.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

38 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Today however, schools only teach the shortcomings of the American founders and whitewash all the positive aspects. That's why so many young Americans are ashamed of their country's history while people from all over the world still come here seeking freedom, opportunity and a better life.

Evidence of this?

And the Founders of the USA, while for the most part religious, were hardly Christian fundamantalists. Some of them did not even identify as Christians, preferring to call themselves Deists.

Quote

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. — Thomas Paine

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Evidence of this?

• Slides from Christopher Rufo's website of some of the curriculum in the public schools
• The thing Hawkstwelve posted about how 79% of people aged 18-24 consider white people to be oppressors and BIPOC people to be oppressed (which is significantly higher than other age groups)
• Record high numbers of young people who prefer socialism over capitalism
• The fact that in 1996 most Democrats were against illegal immigration and same-sex marriage
• The main talking points of the Democratic party today being systemic racism (not a mainstream idea until recently), especially when they were the main ones actually supporting racism until the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Maybe Donald Trump has caused this dramatic change in worldviews, but I don't think so. Categorizing all white people as oppressors and all non-white people as oppressed definitely does not help to resolve racial tensions that still exist today.

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

And the Founders of the USA, while for the most part religious, were hardly Christian fundamantalists. Some of them did not even identify as Christians, preferring to call themselves Deists.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God - John Adams

The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity -
John Adams

[Anti Marine Layer]

Also I remember that in 2016, even Dennis Prager wrote articles about how Trump and Hillary were likely the most horrible candidates ever. I did not vote for Trump as much as against Hillary. The primary elections in California were not until June, by which time Trump was already the clear winner. I also wish that someone other than Trump would win the nomination. 

[roadtonowhere08]

4 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Also I remember that in 2016, even Dennis Prager wrote articles about how Trump and Hillary were likely the most horrible candidates ever. I did not vote for Trump as much as against Hillary. The primary elections in California were not until June, by which time Trump was already the clear winner. I also wish that someone other than Trump would win the nomination. 

I agree the primary process is a joke.  It should all be on the same day.

[SnarkyGoblin]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:09 AM, SilverFallsAndrew said:

There is little doubt the mass immigration that has taken place since 1965 has been catastrophic.

Literally no one thinks this Andrew except for the David Dukes of the country.

No data backs up this claim.  Without question immigration has been a ginormous boom for our economy and growth.  So GTFO with that nonsense.

My dad was one of those immigrants, btw.

[SnarkyGoblin]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:09 AM, SilverFallsAndrew said:

There is little doubt the mass immigration that has taken place since 1965 has been catastrophic.

I was also curious why you specifically chose the 1965 date and realized thats when Congress reformed immigration policy that moved away from race to need.

Quote

 The law abolished the National Origins Formula, which had been the basis of U.S. immigration policy since the 1920s.[2] The act formally removed de facto discrimination against Southern and Eastern Europeans as well as Asians, in addition to other non-Western and Northern European ethnicities from the immigration policy of the United States.[3]

Gross, Andrew.

[Anti Marine Layer]

[Anti Marine Layer]

25 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

My dad was one of those immigrants, btw.

Legal or illegal? 

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Literally no one thinks this Andrew except for the David Dukes of the country.

No data backs up this claim.  Without question immigration has been a ginormous boom for our economy and growth.  So GTFO with that nonsense.

My dad was one of those immigrants, btw.

Don't even waste your time.  He's not even a proficient troll.

[roadtonowhere08]

44 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Legal or illegal? 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

2 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

• Slides from Christopher Rufo's website of some of the curriculum in the public schools
• The thing Hawkstwelve posted about how 79% of people aged 18-24 consider white people to be oppressors and BIPOC people to be oppressed (which is significantly higher than other age groups)
• Record high numbers of young people who prefer socialism over capitalism
• The fact that in 1996 most Democrats were against illegal immigration and same-sex marriage
• The main talking points of the Democratic party today being systemic racism (not a mainstream idea until recently), especially when they were the main ones actually supporting racism until the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Maybe Donald Trump has caused this dramatic change in worldviews, but I don't think so. Categorizing all white people as oppressors and all non-white people as oppressed definitely does not help to resolve racial tensions that still exist today,

None of this is evidence that “schools only teach the shortcomings of the American founders and whitewash all the positive aspects.”

Stop trying to move the goalposts and practice honest argument for once.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

More fascist propaganda that tries to paint any left thought as Bolshevism/Stalinism.

And yes, it is basically fascist propaganda. It is the same line that followers of Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Franco, etc. all parroted: Help! Communism! Communism everywhere! Because some people advocate progressive change! It's all Communism! Communism, I say! Communism!

[Anti Marine Layer]

25 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

He would need to do that to his smart phone too.

[Anti Marine Layer]

24 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

More fascist propaganda that tries to paint any left thought as Bolshevism/Stalinism.

And yes, it is basically fascist propaganda. It is the same line that followers of Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Franco, etc. all parroted: Help! Communism! Communism everywhere! Because some people advocate progressive change! It's all Communism! Communism, I say! Communism!

Another one I made up, but they even say on Wikipedia that classical liberalism was considered left-wing in 1776 originally and today it is considered to be center-right (which that picture illustrates).

There's no doubt Marx and Hitler moved the goalposts.

I guess no matter who they are, minorities will always be always be oppressed and today conservative Christians are becoming a minority in America. 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

2 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Another one I made up, but they even say on Wikipedia that classical liberalism was considered left-wing originally and today it is center-right.

Sure, change happens.

But that doesn’t make everyone to your left a slavering Stalinist. To continually keep implying amounts to repeating fascist propaganda, whether you realize it or not.

[hawkstwelve]

Trump just got kicked off the ballot in Colorado. 

https://apnews.com/article/trump-insurrection-14th-amendment-2024-colorado-d16dd8f354eeaf450558378c65fd79a2

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Sure, change happens.

But that doesn’t make everyone to your left a slavering Stalinist. To continually keep implying amounts to repeating fascist propaganda, whether you realize it or not.

The religious right began to fight back as culture changed (starting with the sexual revolution of the 1960s, before which most people were committed to marriage for life and only having sex inside marriage of which was the main purpose to create families). So I guess the culture has changed and the more secular the left becomes, the harder the religious right will fight back. I guess whoever is president cannot change the culture, but I feel both sides are equally responsible for the increased polarization we are facing today. The more opposition each side faces, the harder they will fight back. Maybe multiculturalism is not such a great thing after all.

However most Americans never imagined people would be threatened with loss of employment or threat of imprisonment for refusing to call someone by their preferred pronouns or marry a same-sex couple against their religious convictions. That does not mean I'm not happy LGBTQ people have things much better today than they have ever had, but it provides a slippery slope for things like polygamy becoming legal. 

However I guess I will need to stop thinking about politics so much as there's nothing I can do to change the world and start thinking about more fun stuff. I used to watch sports a lot before COVID though and even that has become so politicized today that many people have stopped watching.

 

 

[Iceresistance]

21 minutes ago, hawkstwelve said:

Trump just got kicked off the ballot in Colorado. 

https://apnews.com/article/trump-insurrection-14th-amendment-2024-colorado-d16dd8f354eeaf450558378c65fd79a2

Well, be prepared for either the start for more, or people will start accusing Biden of "Rigging the Election by weaponization of the Justice System" or something related to that.

 

Either way, this is uncharted territory, this has NEVER happened before in the History of the United States.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Quote

The religious right began to fight back

For some twisted, gaslighting version of “back,” I suppose.

Spend centuries creating various forms of oppression (racism, sexism, homophobia) against people. Then fight to keep those oppressive systems in place. Demonize anyone who questions them as latter-day Stalin wannabees.

Yeah, fighting “back.”

Snicker.

Basically, the same sort of people who either denied or morally justified multiple imperialist genocides in the Third World (genocides that certain Germans in the first half of the XX century later decided to emulate against other Europeans, but I digress), morally justified slavery, justified child labor, justified gunning down striking workers with live ammunition, send anyone who is not heterosexual to either their graves outright or to a process of psychological and sometimes physical torture, denied women the right to vote or own property, etc. Those people….

…Are fighting “back” when they continue to stop those on the losing side of the arrangement from achieving equality and justice.

Yeah right, fighting “back.”

Good one.

[hawkstwelve]

7 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Well, be prepared for either the start for more, or people will start accusing Biden of "Rigging the Election by weaponization of the Justice System" or something related to that.

 

Either way, this is uncharted territory, this has NEVER happened before in the History of the United States.

All the problems in this country, let alone the world, and instead of focusing on fixing all that Republicans would rather choose to keep watching Trump's daily reality show where it's nothing but chaos and drama. Instead of nominating someone who could beat Biden by 10+ points we are going to choose someone who can't even be on the freaking ballot. 

It's honestly so infuriating at this point. If we, as the Republican Party, really go through with deciding Trump is our best bet at beating Biden, I'm going to laugh when we inevitably lose next year and Republicans are b*tching and moaning and making up some crap about how the election must have been stolen and not that we lost because Trump is the most hated man to half this country. Then I will swiftly register as an Independent and never look back. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

1 hour ago, hawkstwelve said:

Trump just got kicked off the ballot in Colorado. 

https://apnews.com/article/trump-insurrection-14th-amendment-2024-colorado-d16dd8f354eeaf450558378c65fd79a2

Obviously Democrats aren't for democracy either. 

But seriously, this has happened before, I do not believe Lincoln appeared on the ballot in the South during the 1860 election. 

I can't imagine this will withstand a Supreme Court challenge, but we will see. 

If this were to stand it would truly be the end of American Democracy. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Expect Trump to use this to his advantage. You thought he was pissed off before. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by SilverFallsAndrew

[Anti Marine Layer]

2 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

For some twisted, gaslighting version of “back,” I suppose.

Spend centuries creating various forms of oppression (racism, sexism, homophobia) against people. Then fight to keep those oppressive systems in place. Demonize anyone who questions them as latter-day Stalin wannabees.

Yeah, fighting “back.”

Snicker.

Basically, the same sort of people who either denied or morally justified multiple imperialist genocides in the Third World (genocides that certain Germans in the first half of the XX century later decided to emulate against other Europeans, but I digress), morally justified slavery, justified child labor, justified gunning down striking workers with live ammunition, send anyone who is not heterosexual to either their graves outright or to a process of psychological and sometimes physical torture, denied women the right to vote or own property, etc. Those people….

…Are fighting “back” when they continue to stop those on the losing side of the arrangement from achieving equality and justice.

Yeah right, fighting “back.”

Good one.

Yes, but

1. It was only stupid so-called "Christians" who used the Bible to justify chattel slavery. Although slavery was never fully condemned in the Bible the kind of slavery that was allowed was a form where slaves voluntarily sold themselves (usually if they went bankrupt), was supposed to be temporary and the masters were expected to treat them like fellow human beings. The slaves were also expected to be educated or trained in skills for jobs later on. Kidnapping people and selling them was strongly condemned as was mistreating people because they are of a different race. I am pretty sure that at least some American slaveowners treated them like human beings and helped them to get an education or job training (but if you try to suggest that might be true for even 1% of slaveholders, you'll get a liberal meltdown today, when even the AP African American Studies curriculum that DeSantis banned also said so (in slightly different words).

2. Slavery and genocides existed in all cultures throughout history. The main people who abolished it were Christians. However stuff like the 1619 Project tries to imply that capitalism is what led to invention of slavery and genocide and that the world was a generally peaceful place until then.

3. Once again, until 1964 it was mostly Democrats that tried to keep discrimination of Black people going. Democrats founded the KKK. Republicans were still more likely to be Christians than Democrats.

4. Simply giving people government handouts for life does not help them to become educated or develop skills they need to succeed in life. Welfare should only be given to be people who need it only as long as they need it, and instead of free stuff, they should be provided with education and job training. The more people that are living off of welfare and are abusing it, the more the economy will suffer.

5. The LGBQT stuff is a hot issue with no easy answer, but they should have been satisfied when they won the Obergefell v Hodges case. Yet they continued to fight for allowing men in women's restrooms and sports and who knows what else is to come? What about forcing orthodox Jews to cook foods they don't consider to be kosher?

6. Completely banning abortion is going a but too far (kind of like completely abolishing slavery was in the Bible) but at least they should not force taxpayers to pay for it or force Christian or Catholic hospitals to perform them. There are enough doctors and hospitals that are happy to do so. There's also enough churches that will happily marry same-sex couples, but some people go into ones they know that won't just to prove how bigoted Christians are. 

7. Even this Vox article (a left-biased media site) admits that so-called "democratic socialists" want to go much further than what they have in the Nordic countries or Europe. They want to completely abolish capitalism.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8/1/17637028/bernie-sanders-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-cynthia-nixon-democratic-socialism-jacobin-dsa

8. The World Economic Forum clearly states "No one will own anything and everyone will be happy". Doesn't that imply abolition of private property?

9. Humans are not generally good people. That's why a classless society in which "the state will wither away" is a fantasy which requires a whole lot of faith to believe in. Maybe it was possible for small communities in primitive cultures or the churches in Acts 2 and 4, but to expect a whole entire country to live that way is crazy.

 

 

 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Solidarity for Trump. 

Vivek Ramaswamy, who is running against Trump for the Republican nomination, said in a statement to The Washington Post: “I pledge to withdraw from the Colorado GOP primary ballot until Trump is also allowed to be on the ballot, and I demand that Ron DeSantis, Chris Christie, and Nikki Haley to do the same immediately — or else they are tacitly endorsing this illegal maneuver which will have disastrous consequences for our country.”

“I do not believe Donald Trump should be prevented from being president of the United States by any court,” former New Jersey governor Chris Christie told a crowd on Tuesday at a New Hampshire town hall. “I think it’s bad for the country,” if that happens, and “I think it would cause a lot of anger” if that choice was taken away, he said.

[hawkstwelve]

41 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Solidarity for Trump. 

Vivek Ramaswamy, who is running against Trump for the Republican nomination, said in a statement to The Washington Post: “I pledge to withdraw from the Colorado GOP primary ballot until Trump is also allowed to be on the ballot, and I demand that Ron DeSantis, Chris Christie, and Nikki Haley to do the same immediately — or else they are tacitly endorsing this illegal maneuver which will have disastrous consequences for our country.”

“I do not believe Donald Trump should be prevented from being president of the United States by any court,” former New Jersey governor Chris Christie told a crowd on Tuesday at a New Hampshire town hall. “I think it’s bad for the country,” if that happens, and “I think it would cause a lot of anger” if that choice was taken away, he said.

Oh yeah, I'm sure being off the ballot in Colorado will really hurt Vivek's chances at winning the nomination. What's he polling at again? 4%? 

What a pathetically naked attempt to just rope the other candidates into a stupid commitment. Novice level. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Just now, hawkstwelve said:

Oh yeah, I'm sure being off the ballot in Colorado will really hurt Vivek's chances at winning the nomination. What's he polling at again? 4%? 

What a pathetically naked attempt to just rope the other candidates into a stupid commitment. Novice level. 

Do you understand what this could mean if allowed to stand? It would mean any candidate could be barred from running for any arbitrary reason. Trump has been convicted of no crime, and isn't even charge with insurrection. 

Even if Trump is ultimately convicted on all 91 counts, this ruling would still be invalid due to the fact they are barring him for insurrection, which again, he has not even been charged with. But this is what we knew would happen, the left would stop at nothing to keep Trump from the presidency. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Last comment on this topic. If recent history is any guide this move is going to backfire spectacularly on Trump's opponents. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

Guess it's time to stop making this into the religion and philosophy thread, but politics and religion/philosophy are so intertwined it is hard to resist

[hawkstwelve]

46 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Guess it's time to stop making this into the religion and philosophy thread, but politics and religion/philosophy are so intertwined it is hard to resist

Try. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Tucker cannot support Trump if he picks Haley as VP. 

https://themessenger.com/politics/tucker-carlson-donald-trump-nikki-haley-vp

[SilverFallsAndrew]

The internet can't stop talking about Trump going to UFC with Kid Rock and Mario Lopez. 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by SilverFallsAndrew

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

...

However I guess I will need to stop thinking about politics so much as there's nothing I can do to change the world and start thinking about more fun stuff. I used to watch sports a lot before COVID though and even that has become so politicized today that many people have stopped watching.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Guess it's time to stop making this into the religion and philosophy thread, but politics and religion/philosophy are so intertwined it is hard to resist

You only live once. 

You are wasting so much energy on this culture warfare crap.  The far left and the far right love to fight and be miserable.  Miserable people live on the fringes.  They cannot see the shades of grey.  You want to associate with that?  Disengage from the nonsense. Be a spectator and not a gladiator.  You are not moving the dial at all.

Once you accept that, you will be happier.

That was a lot of small sentences.  Yuck.

[hawkstwelve]

52 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Tucker cannot support Trump if he picks Haley as VP. 

https://themessenger.com/politics/tucker-carlson-donald-trump-nikki-haley-vp

[SnarkyGoblin]

An interesting thing about this Colorado ruling is if trump does appeal and scotus rules against him, would that mean he violated the 14th amendment and would not be able to be president?  If he doesn't appeal, he only loses CO which is going to go blue anyway.

14th amendment doesn't require a conviction to apply.

[Andie]

It will be interesting if that portion of Right voters sue regarding being denied  their right to vote for their candidate.   
You can have a Communist Party candidate on the ballot, or any other, so this will be interesting how they resolve this.  
It’s an important case in the State Supreme Court. The Civil War era 14th Amendment Section 3 is under the microscope.  Interesting.  

It won’t be resolved quickly and some voters will feel robbed of their right to vote for their candidate.   
This could be seen as legal inconsistency across the 50 States and abuse of the courts for election manipulation.
This could get very complex and go to the Federal Supremes.