Middle East Conflict of 2023-2024

[Iceresistance]

12 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Rule No. 1 about governments is that they lie. PARTICULARLY during times of war. First casualty and all that.

The Germans altered the downed RAF plans during the Battle of Britian

[Iceresistance]

He's not going to last long being with NATO or EU at this rate

Turkey's president Erdogan declares Israel a terrorist state (msn.com)

[SnarkyGoblin]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

He's not going to last long being with NATO or EU at this rate

Turkey's president Erdogan declares Israel a terrorist state (msn.com)

Yeah...Europe should have never let Turkey into the EU.  That Erdogan is a bully.

[Iceresistance]

31 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Yeah...Europe should have never let Turkey into the EU.  That Erdogan is a bully.

Wasn't it before Erdogan was the leader for Turkey when Turkey joined the EU?

[SnarkyGoblin]

51 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Wasn't it before Erdogan was the leader for Turkey when Turkey joined the EU?

Sorry I misspoke.  Turkey has been *trying* to get into the EU since the 90's.  It's technically not a member.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Can’t believe this war is still going on. Hope peace breaks out soon! 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

What a victim. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/14/israel-palestine-free-speech-dei

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

What a victim. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/14/israel-palestine-free-speech-dei

“Cancel culture is just fine when MY SIDE is doing the cancelling!”

 

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

“Cancel culture is just fine when MY SIDE is doing the cancelling!”

 

No such thing as debate and proper rhetoric anymore.  Just fingers in ears and shrieking about being offended all the time.  Extra points for using misplaced pejoratives like "anti-Semitic", "Nazi", "danger to society", et all.  Bunch of weenies we've become.

The more people's desires to express themselves become suppressed, the more explosive it becomes when that breaking point is reached.

[Andie]

20 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

The Germans altered the downed RAF plans during the Battle of Britian

I liked Britain’s fake military on the English Channel in WW2.  Artificial tanks and plans was brilliant.  The enemy bought it. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

7 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

“Cancel culture is just fine when MY SIDE is doing the cancelling!”

 

Sure, of course. As Joe Biden says, it’s a battle for the soul of America. I.e whether our country should exist or not. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

“American university students have become so ‘progressive’ that they are now praising Osama Bin Laden and his essay ‘Letter to America,’” Visegrad24 posted on X. “Bin Laden started the essay by complaining about “Jewish control over money.”

[Rubus Leucodermis]

47 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

“American university students have become so ‘progressive’ that they are now praising Osama Bin Laden and his essay ‘Letter to America,’” Visegrad24 posted on X. “Bin Laden started the essay by complaining about “Jewish control over money.”

Call me silly, but I think I’ll worry about a fascist who calls his opponents “vermin” and promises he will “root out” those opponents running for president of the United States more than what a relatively paltry number of foolish twentysomethings with approximately zero political power are tweeting in their echo chamber.

[Anti Marine Layer]

10 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Call me silly, but I think I’ll worry about a fascist who calls his opponents “vermin” and promises he will “root out” those opponents running for president of the United States more than what a relatively paltry number of foolish twentysomethings with approximately zero political power are tweeting in their echo chamber.

Those students are our future voters and people who are supposed to be smart (e.g. Harvard University) are being brainwashed by Democrat-controlled public education to think of everyone as either an oppressor or a victim, where anything is justified for the victims to level the playing field, including rioting, looting, burning down buildings and terrorism. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

[Iceresistance]

Everything Pro-Israel in NYC, DOXXED. This is bad.

 

Pro-Palestine group calls for 'direct action' on NYC landmarks (msn.com)

[Phil]

https://x.com/aghamilton29/status/1725334681661378620?s=46&t=656Z973wLtGKaIyhhq_7QQ

[roadtonowhere08]

Ceasefire demands will grow without proof of Hamas HQ at Al-Shifa

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67453105

For a country who prides itself on having among the best intelligence agencies in the world, it's going to be a real embarrassment if nothing is found in/under this hospital.  It makes sense to me that Hamas would use it for operations, so either they have a conscience and never used it (doubt it), moved everything out ahead of time, or Israel is not saying anything (yet).  If they found evidence, they better speak up soon or they will look like Bush with the WMDs.  Or perhaps that was the entire point: false pretense to flatten the area.

I don't trust either side, since there are so many examples of them lying through their teeth, so who knows?

[Iceresistance]

9 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Ceasefire demands will grow without proof of Hamas HQ at Al-Shifa

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67453105

For a country who prides itself on having among the best intelligence agencies in the world, it's going to be a real embarrassment if nothing is found in/under this hospital.  It makes sense to me that Hamas would use it for operations, so either they have a conscience and never used it (doubt it), moved everything out ahead of time, or Israel is not saying anything (yet).  If they found evidence, they better speak up soon or they will look like Bush with the WMDs.  Or perhaps that was the entire point: false pretense to flatten the area.

I don't trust either side, since there are so many examples of them lying through their teeth, so who knows?

What if Hamas has multiple or mobile HQs that allow them to quickly move from one location to another?

[Iceresistance]

Some are saying that this is WW3, but in hybrid mode.

We're Not on the 'Brink' of WWIII. We're in It | Opinion (msn.com)

[roadtonowhere08]

22 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

What if Hamas has multiple or mobile HQs that allow them to quickly move from one location to another?

It's entirely possible (I would say likely.)  But it's also an expectation at this point that Israel knows this based on intel and their spy network. 

This is not the U.S. going into Afghanistan almost blind.  Gaza is next door to Israel, is tiny, and has been in a stranglehold for decades.

[Andie]

29 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Some are saying that this is WW3, but in hybrid mode.

We're Not on the 'Brink' of WWIII. We're in It | Opinion (msn.com)

I’ve heard that throughout my life.   
And before that my parents and their wars.  
Truth is, the world has been at war for thousands of years but narrowing it down, it could be said we’ve been in non-stop war since WW1.  

People like to assign starts and stops to things like war.  Peace Treaties are for public consumption.  Those in the know, know better.  Opposing sides are just regrouping.  

[Iceresistance]

Who is saying that Israel is intentionally preventing the medical aid to Gaza? 

You can't do much when Hamas steals everything for themselves

[Rubus Leucodermis]

4 hours ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

So you consider "vermin" to be an acceptable term to refer to humans whom you oppose?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

39 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Who is saying that Israel is intentionally preventing the medical aid to Gaza? 

You can't do much when Hamas steals everything for themselves

They occupied it. As the occupying power, they basically have to do such things under international law.

[Anti Marine Layer]

50 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

So you consider "vermin" to be an acceptable term to refer to humans whom you oppose?

Yep, no worse then deplorables, as Hillary would say.

Trump also said the vermin were the Marxists and communists (e.g. those preaching the oppressor/victim ideology to people to divide them by class, race, gender, etc, calling Christians extremists, as well as anyone who supports that kind of stuff being taught in schools)

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Just now, Anti Marine Layer said:

Yep, no worse then deplorable, as Hillary would say.

Actually, it's much worse.

What does one do to vermin in one's house?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

IDF evidence so far falls well short of al-Shifa hospital being Hamas HQ

[Iceresistance]

40 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

They occupied it. As the occupying power, they basically have to do such things under international law.

One of the issues is that there are claims that Israel is intentionally preventing aid into Gaza and dehumanizing the Palestinians. 

The issue is that Israel has a good reason to not allow aid into all of Gaza because Hamas will steal ALL humanitarian aid for themselves, and exploit ambulances for their own use.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Just now, Iceresistance said:

One of the issues is that there are claims that Israel is intentionally preventing aid into Gaza and dehumanizing the Palestinians. 

The issue is that Israel has a good reason to not allow aid into all of Gaza because Hamas will steal ALL humanitarian aid for themselves, and exploit ambulances for their own use.

ALL?

Get real.

[Iceresistance]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

ALL?

Get real.

Hamas, not Israel, is perpetrating ‘collective punishment’ in Gaza (msn.com)
This is slightly aged, but this is proof that Hamas is willing to steal ALL basic humanitarian aid to fuel their war machine.

[roadtonowhere08]

Yes, I am pulling a Marine Layer, but this is such a well-written Op-Ed that I'm doing it anyway:

Opinion: Israel’s Palestinian strategy was a grave miscalculation

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/17/opinions/israel-approach-palestinian-authority-west-bank-ibish/index.html

Editor’s Note: Hussein Ibish is a Senior Resident Scholar at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington. His most recent book is “What’s Wrong with the One-State Agenda? Why Ending the Occupation and Peace with Israel is Still the Palestinian National Goal.” The views expressed in this commentary are his own. Read more CNN Opinion.

CNN
 — 
The most important factor in determining the political outcome of Israel’s current war will not take place in Gaza — but will instead unfold in the West Bank.

That’s because if Israel really wants to deliver a serious long-term blow to Hamas as a potent political movement among the Palestinian people, it’s going to be essential to seriously rethink its attitude towards the Islamist extremist group’s archrivals: the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank and Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) on the international stage.

Without strengthening these Palestinian groups, which still represent the mainstream of the national movement, Hamas and even more extreme groups will almost certainly continue to grow and thrive among the Palestinian people.

If Israel is now serious about decimating Hamas’s military and political power, that cannot be done only or even mainly by killing the group’s leaders and members and blowing up its equipment and infrastructure. New people can and will fill the void and insurgencies can successfully operate on a shoestring and under extremely onerous conditions.

Because the Palestinian people, their cause and their national movement are not going to disappear, the only way to really marginalize Hamas in the long run is to abandon the policy of simultaneously strengthening and weakening both Palestinian factions to keep them at odds with each other and therefore ineffective as a national movement.

Hamas, the early years
In one of the most reckless and self-defeating policies in its young history, Israel, from the outset, sought to bolster and use Hamas to split and thereby cripple the Palestinian national movement.

Hamas was formed by the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza during the firmament of the first Palestinian intifada (uprising) against Israeli occupation in 1987. Israeli occupation authorities immediately believed they had stumbled upon a marvelous opportunity to divide Palestinians between secular nationalists and Islamists just as they began to rise up on the ground in the occupied territories.

Hamas was given considerable leeway to organize and form itself, with Israel turning a blind eye to the organization’s early efforts to structure and found itself — activities that would have been ruthlessly suppressed if pursued by either Fatah-dominated organizations or the local grassroots committees that led the first uprising in its initial months.

For a brief period during the Oslo negotiations and the initial implementation of the Israeli-Palestinian agreements that led to the formation of the small self-administered Palestinian enclaves in the West Bank and most of Gaza in the 1990s, this deeply misguided strategy of divide and rule was essentially set aside in favor of serious negotiations with the PLO and a significant degree of cooperation with the PA.

However, after the failure of the Camp David summit in 2000 and the subsequent outbreak of the far more violent second intifada in the fall of that year, the Israeli right resumed power. Under Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli right has dominated national politics for the vast majority of subsequent years, and it eagerly resumed a divide and rule approach.

This seemed to reach a successful crescendo in 2007, when a year of divided government among Palestinians — with a Fatah presidency under Mahmoud Abbas and a Hamas-dominated legislature — collapsed into open conflict and Hamas violently expelled Fatah and the PA from Gaza.

Israel’s ‘divide and rule’ approach
For Netanyahu and his colleagues, this split was ideal. Hamas’ unwavering commitment to armed struggle and violence allowed the Israeli right to paint the entire Palestinian national movement as hopelessly extreme.

And the split between Gaza and the West Bank provided Israelis who wanted no part in any additional negotiations with the Palestinians which could result in a two-state solution with a perfect excuse not to sit down with the PLO, by claiming that they do not represent the entirety of the Palestinian people.

For almost 20 years, Israel’s policy was to keep Hamas in power in Gaza, albeit besieged and contained, and periodically and literally cut down to size through wars cynically described as “mowing the grass,” while at the same time ensuring that the PA continued to control the self-administered enclaves in the West Bank, albeit with extreme institutional and political weakness.

Above all, the core goal appeared to be to ensure that the Palestinian division prevented any additional movement towards the creation of a Palestinian state or the development of any further restrictions on Israeli settlement activity and the now openly-declared national policy goal of eventual additional major annexation in the West Bank.

In March 2019, Netanyahu told a private meeting of Likud party Knesset members that “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring funds to Hamas in Gaza, according to the Jerusalem Post. He reportedly said that this was part of Israel’s strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. This articulated policies that the Israeli right had been diligently following for many years. And it led, inexorably and predictably, to the October 7 massacres.

What Hamas did next
Israelis, including the national security establishment, were taken aback by the Hamas attack of October 7 because they had wrongly concluded that both Palestinian groups were content to rule their separate fiefdoms and persist in a relative stalemate for dominance of the national movement that played perfectly into Israel’s hands.

What the Israelis had not appreciated is that since Hamas’ founding in 1987, its prime directive has been to maneuver to take over the Palestinian national movement and, eventually, the PLO with its invaluable international diplomatic presence, including nonmember observer state status at the UN and over 100 embassies around the world.

It was instantly obvious after the October 7 killing spree that the increasingly unpopular Hamas was seeking to use violence assert its dominance of the national movement. Indeed, it’s clear that Hamas expected an overwhelming military response from Israel on the ground in Gaza, and that it hopes to provoke a long-term Israeli security presence against which it can, sooner rather than later, organize a sustained and increasingly powerful insurgency.

The obvious goal is to contrast this armed resistance, not just now, but especially in coming years, with PA security cooperation with Israel and the PLO’s unwavering commitment to securing independence through a two-state agreement with Israel.

The only rational choice left for Israel in the wake of October 7 is to finally choose to deal seriously and constructively with the Palestinians who are committed to talking to Israelis, as opposed to bolstering those who want to kill Israelis.

It may go against all the instincts of many Israeli extremists in the current government, including Netanyahu, but if they do not begin to deal seriously, constructively and cooperatively with the PA and the PLO, Hamas and even more extreme groups will continue to thrive.

This means taking any number of obvious measures to strengthen the PA institutionally and politically, including by expanding its authority in the West Bank.

And it means reengaging with the PLO at the negotiating table to seriously discuss a viable accommodation that meets the needs of both peoples.

Beyond Mahmoud Abbas
Many Israelis may find it hard to imagine suddenly taking Mahmoud Abbas, who is both the PA president and the PLO chairman, seriously, both because they are used to thinking of him as a spent force and ineffective leader, and because he has lashed out in frustration with language that has been highly offensive, including regarding the Holocaust.

There is no doubt that Abbas is, in almost every imaginable way, long past his sell-by date. But the old, infirm and chain-smoking politician, who at least has time and again proven his unwavering rejection of violence as a Palestinian national strategy, represents exactly this trend among Palestinians. And when he passes, sooner rather than later, from the scene, he will be replaced by others from the same tendency.

Israelis cannot approach this decisive strategic and political inflection point by focusing on the personality, failures or foibles of Abbas. In many ways, Israel’s consistently hostile policies were the single biggest factor in shaping him into the highly flawed figure he has become.

This is the Palestinian leader who, after all, resigned as Yasser Arafat’s Prime Minister during the second intifada and voluntarily went into an open-ended sojourn in the political wilderness, precisely because he categorically rejected the use of violence.

Moreover, it’s not about Abbas or his inner circle as personalities. It must be about strengthening the hands of Palestinians who sincerely seek an accommodation with Jewish Israelis and represent the primary obstacle to Hamas finally achieving political dominance among Palestinians.

It’s a no-brainer, but Netanyahu and his government show no signs of understanding the necessity of such a radical policy shift. The Biden administration appears to understand the challenge in theory, but how much they can or will do to implement such a revised policy towards the Palestinian political scene is uncertain at best.

Given the profound governance, security and intelligence failures revealed by the October 7 attack — which was “successful” beyond Hamas’s wildest fantasies —Israelis should certainly be seeking new leadership. If and when they at last turn their backs on Netanyahu and the coterie of Jewish supremacists surrounding him, it’s essential that the next phase of Israeli strategic thinking reflects at least some understanding of the Palestinian political scene and what Israel’s real options are.

It’s not too late to choose to deal seriously, respectfully and constructively with Palestinians who are sincere about a negotiated agreement for peaceful coexistence. The alternative was on full display on October 7.

No amount of death and destruction in Gaza or elsewhere is going to provide Israel with lasting security. A negotiated agreement with the Palestinian factions who, despite everything, still want to reach a peace deal with Israel — for good or ill, currently led by Abbas — can bring that about. It’s the only thing that can bring Israelis peace and genuine security.

[roadtonowhere08]

11 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Actually, it's much worse.

What does one do to vermin in one's house?

Does anyone really take that Pharma Bro seriously?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

3 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Hamas, not Israel, is perpetrating ‘collective punishment’ in Gaza (msn.com)
This is slightly aged, but this is proof that Hamas is willing to steal ALL basic humanitarian aid to fuel their war machine.

Moving the goalposts. “Willing to steal” and actually stealing are two different things.

Look, Hamas is, in general, terrible. No disagreement there.

But stealing everything is unlikely for two reasons:

1. The humanitarian agencies donating the aid would report it to the international media, thus damaging Hamas' credibility abroad.
2. Starving civilians would damage Hamas' credibility internally.

It is to Hamas' advantage that at least some aid get to civilians.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Who is saying that Israel is intentionally preventing the medical aid to Gaza? 

You can't do much when Hamas steals everything for themselves

You take the IDF, a serial lying intelligence apparatus, at face value?  Naive much?

[roadtonowhere08]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Moving the goalposts. “Willing to steal” and actually stealing are two different things.

Look, Hamas is, in general, terrible. No disagreement there.

But stealing everything is unlikely for two reasons:

1. The humanitarian agencies donating the aid would report it to the international media, thus damaging Hamas' credibility abroad.
2. Starving civilians would damage Hamas' credibility internally.

It is to Hamas' advantage that at least some aid get to civilians.

 

Oh look, another example of the truth being somewhere in between the extremes.  100% agree.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

3 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Does anyone really take that Pharma Bro seriously?

I have no idea who this “pharma bro” is but Trump himself used the term “vermin” twice recently.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

4 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

You take the IDF, a serial lying intelligence apparatus, at face value?  Naive much?

Well, who knows, perhaps some actual damning evidence of an actual command centre under al-Shifa Hospital is about to drop. But as of right now, all the best available evidence is consistent with it being a just a hospital and nothing more.

[roadtonowhere08]

3 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

I have no idea who this “pharma bro” is but Trump himself used the term “vermin” twice recently.

Mr. Vivek Ramaswampy

[Iceresistance]

Just now, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Well, who knows, perhaps some actual damning evidence of an actual command centre under al-Shifa Hospital is about to drop. But as of right now, all the best available evidence is consistent with it being a just a hospital and nothing more.

Israel also needs to absolutely clear out the tunnels because the tunnels are also being used for ambushes.