Middle East Conflict of 2023-2024

[Iceresistance]

Also factor that Israel is more used to more "organized" warfare and not the type Hamas does.


I am also wondering if Hamas stole Israeli's flags and doing some of the attacks, Terrorists are also known for doing False-Flag Operations so they can deflect the blame on others.

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Also factor that Israel is more used to more "organized" warfare and not the type Hamas does.


I am also wondering if Hamas stole Israeli's flags and doing some of the attacks, Terrorists are also known for doing False-Flag Operations so they can deflect the blame on others.

That's not true at all.  Most of their fighting is urban combat against small groups of insurgents.  Even October 7th was not "organized" in the sense of the word.  It was a surge of Hamas (and who knows who else) into a suspiciously poorly guarded portion of Israel adjacent to Gaza.

And your last point is nonsense.  Both sides like to blame the other, but the sheer amount of eyewitnesses here tells a very consistent story:  A poorly organized aid delivery, a mob of starving Palestinians, IDF shooting into the crowd, chaos, panicked truck drivers plowing over the living and dead.

If Israel is going to destroy Gaza, it is absolutely their legal and moral obligation to ensure that the innocents that they have displaced do not die of atrocious conditions.  They have failed miserably.  They pretty much let the trucks drive in, knowing that starving people would mob them.  The IDF does not give a sh*t.  They make it pretty obvious that they view Palestinians as subhuman.

F*ck the IDF and the Israeli government.  The U.S. needs to grow a pair and tell them to f*ck off and fend for themselves.  We are an accomplice to this and I feel dirty.

[Iceresistance]

I wished I am making this up, but it's real

 

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

I wished I am making this up, but it's real

 

Did anyone think the jihadists were going to sit on the sidelines forever?  Israel's actions breed more extremists.  If you do not have a conventional standing army at your command, you resort to "terrorist" attacks to make your point.  This is not hard to understand.

The extremists on both sides are driving the train.  There is really no incentive to whack the people at the top, because it is easier to let this play out than it is to actually solve the problem.  Also, armed conflict is profitable for those playing the sides against each other. 

And countless innocents die as a result like always.

[Iceresistance]

I wasn't expecting this

 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

On 3/2/2024 at 1:48 PM, roadtonowhere08 said:

Did anyone think the jihadists were going to sit on the sidelines forever?  Israel's actions breed more extremists.  If you do not have a conventional standing army at your command, you resort to "terrorist" attacks to make your point.  This is not hard to understand.

The extremists on both sides are driving the train.  There is really no incentive to whack the people at the top, because it is easier to let this play out than it is to actually solve the problem.  Also, armed conflict is profitable for those playing the sides against each other. 

And countless innocents die as a result like always.

Ahhh yes... Well now it is Ramadan, the annual feast of violence. They shall dig their own grave even deeper. I am hearing rumors of a place called Rafah, a place that will soon be but a memory. A byword among the nations of a place which once existed. 

[roadtonowhere08]

13 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Ahhh yes... Well now it is Ramadan, the annual feast of violence. They shall dig their own grave even deeper. I am hearing rumors of a place called Rafah, a place that will soon be but a memory. A byword among the nations of a place which once existed. 

You sad little man.  A Jew condoning genocide.  The irony.

[roadtonowhere08]

Now back to ignoring Andrew.  His idiocy is carcinogenic.

[roadtonowhere08]

Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68490034

The road to the genocidal elimination of Palestine goes on...

[Iceresistance]

The media spined this as "IDF firing at the Palestinians for aid", but there are some things they intentionally let out.

IDF releases review of deadly shooting near aid convoy in Gaza, says Palestinians fired at 'posed a threat' (msn.com)

The IDF had a group that made a threatening approach, warning shots failed to deter them.


Could it be a stampede caused by the panic caused a lot of deaths? Absolutely.

[roadtonowhere08]

10 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

The media spined this as "IDF firing at the Palestinians for aid", but there are some things they intentionally let out.

IDF releases review of deadly shooting near aid convoy in Gaza, says Palestinians fired at 'posed a threat' (msn.com)

The IDF had a group that made a threatening approach, warning shots failed to deter them.


Could it be a stampede caused by the panic caused a lot of deaths? Absolutely.

Yeah, you'll have to excuse me if I do not believe the IDF, the same people who shoot journalists and cover it up.  No thanks.

[roadtonowhere08]

Oh FFS!

At least 5 killed after airdropped aid falls on them in Gaza

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-airdropped-aid-deaths-intl/index.html

[Iceresistance]

2 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Oh FFS!

At least 5 killed after airdropped aid falls on them in Gaza

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-airdropped-aid-deaths-intl/index.html

It nearly happened to our POW troops in WW2 as well

[SilverFallsAndrew]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:16 AM, roadtonowhere08 said:

Oh FFS!

At least 5 killed after airdropped aid falls on them in Gaza

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-airdropped-aid-deaths-intl/index.html

Oops!

[SilverFallsAndrew]

It's time. 

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-03-10-24/index.html

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Seems like a big snow event in Colorado later this week. Haha didn't mean to post that here. 

Edited March 11 by SilverFallsAndrew

[Anti Marine Layer]

5 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Seems like a big snow event in Colorado later this week. Haha didn't mean to post that here. 

Should have been in Mountain West Discussion.

[roadtonowhere08]

So what's the gameplan after Rafah is destroyed?

"It's our land now."  Works well in the West Bank.

A bully is a bully until it gets slapped down.

[Anti Marine Layer]

4 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

So what's the gameplan after Rafah is destroyed?

"It's our land now."  Works well in the West Bank.

A bully is a bully until it gets slapped down.

The war moves to Colorado after that and they will see who can get the land that gets the most snow. 

It will be necessary to survive the climate crisis. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

14 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

So what's the gameplan after Rafah is destroyed?

"It's our land now."  Works well in the West Bank.

A bully is a bully until it gets slapped down.

From the river to the sea, israel

will finally be free?

[roadtonowhere08]

The fun continues:

David Cameron has said the BBC report about Palestinian medical staff in Gaza being beaten and humiliated by Israeli troops is "very disturbing".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68546268

[roadtonowhere08]

You know Netanyahu has lost the long game when Chuck Schumer, a staunch ally of Israel and most of its policies, basically calls for the his removal.

Netanyahu's response?

Thanks for all the yearly U.S. aid.  Get stuffed.  We're going into Rafah.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/17/politics/netanyahu-schumer-us-israeli-relations/index.html

Israel: A global pariah.  Whatever goodwill they had after October 7th is gone.  31,000 dead Palestinians, mostly women and children will do that.

And the part that floors me?  There were more mass protests in Israel over Netanyahu's attempt to neuter the courts than their government leading a genocide against the Palestinians.

[Andie]

It’s an ancient battle.  The world is weary of it.   You’d think they’d be tired of it too.  

[SnarkyGoblin]

8 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

You know Netanyahu has lost the long game when Chuck Schumer, a staunch ally of Israel and most of its policies, basically calls for the his removal.

Netanyahu's response?

Thanks for all the yearly U.S. aid.  Get stuffed.  We're going into Rafah.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/17/politics/netanyahu-schumer-us-israeli-relations/index.html

Israel: A global pariah.  Whatever goodwill they had after October 7th is gone.  31,000 dead Palestinians, mostly women and children will do that.

And the part that floors me?  There were more mass protests in Israel over Netanyahu's attempt to neuter the courts than their government leading a genocide against the Palestinians.

My staunchly conservative buddy from college sent this to me:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers

I was annoyed that the author did not actually provide a link of where he got the data, considering the entire op-ed revolves around it.  He named the source, but when I went to their site, their numbers were totally different than what the author claims.  And then on the bottom, he says "Here's the data!" and it's a basic Excel sheet he uploaded to a dropbox-like site - with no sourcing on the sheet.  Hard to believe he's a statistician.

As usual, it's probably somewhere in the middle.

[roadtonowhere08]

7 hours ago, Andie said:

It’s an ancient battle.  The world is weary of it.   You’d think they’d be tired of it too.  

While conflict in the region is as old as time, it is a cop out to take that attitude with the current state of affairs.

When you have the time, this article puts my opinion into words nicely:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/16/the-real-reason-the-israel-palestine-peace-process-always-fails

Israel has all the power in this current equation.  There literally is no incentive for them to change their actions or attitudes.  Making peace costs more than maintaining the status quo, and it is getting more entrenched each year.

The U.S. has gone from this:

The second option is to make the fallback worse. This is what President Eisenhower did following the 1956 Suez crisis when he threatened economic sanctions to get Israel to withdraw from Sinai and Gaza. This is what President Ford did in 1975 when he reassessed US relations with Israel, refusing to provide it with new arms deals until it agreed to a second Sinai withdrawal. This is what President Carter did when he raised the spectre of terminating US military assistance if Israel did not immediately evacuate Lebanon in September 1977. And this is what Carter did when he made clear to both sides at Camp David that the United States would withhold aid and downgrade relations if they did not sign an agreement. This, likewise, is what the US secretary of state James Baker did in 1991, when he forced a reluctant Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir to attend negotiations in Madrid by withholding a $10bn loan guarantee that Israel needed to absorb the immigration of Soviet Jews. That was the last time the United States applied pressure of this sort.

To this:

Since Oslo, in fact, the US has done quite the reverse, working to maintain the low cost of Israel’s fallback option. Successive US administrations have financed the Palestinian government, trained its resistance-crushing security forces, pressured the PLO not to confront Israel in international institutions, vetoed UN Security Council resolutions that were not to Israel’s liking, shielded Israel’s arsenal from calls for a nuclear-free Middle East, ensured Israel’s military superiority over all of its neighbours, provided the country with more than $3bn in military aid each year, and exercised its influence to defend Israel from criticism.

It develops an attitude thusly:

The former Israeli defence minister Moshe Dayan once said: “Our American friends offer us money, arms and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice.”

The U.S. is basically in the same situation:  We keep writing the checks and providing cover because it is easier and cheaper than strong arming both parties for peace.  We could force it.  We don't want to.  Just like we are too chickenshit to force aid into Gaza as well.  We can start wars unilaterally without permission, but apparently we cannot stand up to Israel when it comes to keeping innocent people alive.

9/11 was a result of our horrid policies in the region over the decades.  What did we do?  Afghanistan and Iraq.

I'm worried that our actions (or inactions depending on how you want to frame it) in Gaza recently have made our security much more vulnerable:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/11/cia-israel-gaza-ukraine-ai/

We did not learn after 9/11 because we did not have to.  We are not learning now.  We don't have to.  When you are on top, you get global freedom to basically do what you want.

Peace costs money.  War makes money.

But for every action, there is a reaction, and innocent U.S. civilians are at risk based on our selfish actions.

2 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

My staunchly conservative buddy from college sent this to me:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers

I was annoyed that the author did not actually provide a link of where he got the data, considering the entire op-ed revolves around it.  He named the source, but when I went to their site, their numbers were totally different than what the author claims.  And then on the bottom, he says "Here's the data!" and it's a basic Excel sheet he uploaded to a dropbox-like site - with no sourcing on the sheet.  Hard to believe he's a statistician.

As usual, it's probably somewhere in the middle.

The truth usually is, but the Hamas numbers are the only ones we have, and Israel is not exactly truthful with numbers either.  The IDF lies like a rug.  When you have a country that actively keeps aid out to starve it's occupied population, you either go with the Hamas numbers or you throw darts at the wall.  Not like we can go in there and count the bodies.

 

[Andie]

When I get some time I’ll read up on these.   I’m snowed right now.  But I agree that Israel has had the cards in its hands to resolve so much of this or at least instigate a constructive conversation. As a kid I was the only one on my block glued to the TV through the 6 days war and the Security Council’s nonstop meetings.  So I was a nerd from day 1, I guess.  

Israel has had so much opportunity and the power to reduce the violence.  But I keep seeing this chemical reaction continue to flare up.  After Israel became a state no one has known peace.  The cost in lives, peace, lost productivity, and national identity cannot be measured.  It’s a travesty.

 I thought things would calm down when Arafat died…Nope. 
Maybe when Netanyahu dies things will ease up. His family has been at battle for generations.
It makes no sense at all.  So many squandered opportunities on both sides. It’s a situation in perpetual motion.  

[roadtonowhere08]

2 hours ago, Andie said:

When I get some time I’ll read up on these.   I’m snowed right now.  But I agree that Israel has had the cards in its hands to resolve so much of this or at least instigate a constructive conversation. As a kid I was the only one on my block glued to the TV through the 6 days war and the Security Council’s nonstop meetings.  So I was a nerd from day 1, I guess.  

Israel has had so much opportunity and the power to reduce the violence.  But I keep seeing this chemical reaction continue to flare up.  After Israel became a state no one has known peace.  The cost in lives, peace, lost productivity, and national identity cannot be measured.  It’s a travesty.

 I thought things would calm down when Arafat died…Nope. 
Maybe when Netanyahu dies things will ease up. His family has been at battle for generations.
It makes no sense at all.  So many squandered opportunities on both sides. It’s a situation in perpetual motion.  

I wouldn't count on it.  Islamic jihadists and messianic Zionists don't seem to be in short supply unfortunately.  Higher ups are all too happy to use those useful idiots for their own benefits as well.

It's only going to get better when the average Muslim/Jew has decided that true compromise is in order and either violently or nonviolently rises up and demands "enough".  Who knows when that might be.

I'll tell you this though: The citizens of Israel have a lot more power to enact meaningful change than those of Palestine.  Money and freedom gets you influence.  Palestinians have neither.

[Andie]

It won’t end in either of our lifetimes.  I’ve come to accept it as a black hole on the planet.  It just keeps sucking all the energy and mass out of the region.  It’s Hatfields and McCoys on steroids. 
Sell tickets. You’ll at least make some cash on it.

[roadtonowhere08]

On 3/19/2024 at 4:11 AM, Andie said:

It won’t end in either of our lifetimes.  I’ve come to accept it as a black hole on the planet.  It just keeps sucking all the energy and mass out of the region.  It’s Hatfields and McCoys on steroids. 
Sell tickets. You’ll at least make some cash on it.

Or beachfront property once all those pesky Palestinians are moved out...

CNN's Jim Sciutto speaks with Rep. Gerry Connelly (D-VA) about former Trump White House adviser Jared Kushner calling waterfront property in Gaza "very valuable."

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2024/03/22/gerry-connelly-jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-max-vpx.cnn

[SilverFallsAndrew]

I heard Palestine's soccer team is trying to qualify for World Cup. Not sure what that is because I only follow real sports, but perhaps they can be grouped with Iran, North Korean, and Nazi Germany.

[Andie]

5 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Or beachfront property once all those pesky Palestinians are moved out...

CNN's Jim Sciutto speaks with Rep. Gerry Connelly (D-VA) about former Trump White House adviser Jared Kushner calling waterfront property in Gaza "very valuable."

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2024/03/22/gerry-connelly-jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-max-vpx.cnn

Profiteering is part of the problem too.  
Bombing neighborhoods to clear for high rise luxury apartments is not a solution.  But this constant killing and conflict has to stop. 
Both sides need to be separated like quarreling kids.  
It’s become a conflict that affects economies across the planet. Enough. 

[roadtonowhere08]

15 hours ago, Andie said:

Profiteering is part of the problem too.  
Bombing neighborhoods to clear for high rise luxury apartments is not a solution.  But this constant killing and conflict has to stop. 
Both sides need to be separated like quarreling kids.  
It’s become a conflict that affects economies across the planet. Enough. 

And who has the power to do it?  Us, the Saudis, Egypt, Iran, and the Gulf countries.  None seem to care.

The U.S. profits from the arms sales, investments, and is spineless against Israel.

The Saudi royals will do anything to stay rich and in power no matter who they screw in the process.

Same with the Gulf countries.

Egypt just wants to be left alone to deal with African issues.

And the Iranian government is just nuts.

[Andie]

Don’t forget Russia digs the diversion.  

[roadtonowhere08]

We'll take your money, your weapons, but shove your advice:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/25/politics/joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-rafah-meetings/index.html

Netanyahu is like the rich spoiled little sh*t teenager who does what he wants but then throws a b*tch fit when things don't go exactly his way.

Israelis could learn from our mistakes after 9/11 and realize that this idiot is setting them back BIG TIME as the world opinion unites against them.

[Iceresistance]

Now Hamas wants Biden to STOP the aid drops

Hamas calls for Gaza air drops to stop after 12 people drown (msn.com)

[roadtonowhere08]

10 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Now Hamas wants Biden to STOP the aid drops

Hamas calls for Gaza air drops to stop after 12 people drown (msn.com)

Any aid is better than nothing, but what is being dropped is not what can be easily used and it is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount that is desperately needed.  I can see where Hamas is coming from, since these limited drops of limited accuracy certainly can encourage desperate behavior that can lead to death.

The point that is lost in stories like these is that the entire Palestinian population is starving due to the will of Israel.  If the U.S. had any balls, they would tell the Israel to shove it and get the aid in with no (zero) resistance from Israel.  Without us, Israel is NOTHING.  We are weak, and Israel knows it, so they are starving out the Palestinians because they can.

Again, because we are basically arming the Israelis with our weapons and then pretending to care about the Palestinians with our empty outrage, we are putting our own national security at risk for a country that uses us like a desperate sugar daddy.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

On 3/25/2024 at 6:19 PM, roadtonowhere08 said:

We'll take your money, your weapons, but shove your advice:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/25/politics/joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-rafah-meetings/index.html

Netanyahu is like the rich spoiled little sh*t teenager who does what he wants but then throws a b*tch fit when things don't go exactly his way.

Israelis could learn from our mistakes after 9/11 and realize that this idiot is setting them back BIG TIME as the world opinion unites against them.

And why shouldn’t the spoiled teen do it? He knows his parents are total pushovers.

[roadtonowhere08]

4 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

And why shouldn’t the spoiled teen do it? He knows his parents are total pushovers.

He is going to 9/11 this until his bitter end.  Whether it is a peaceful ousting or a Yitzhak Rabin-ing remains to be seen.

[roadtonowhere08]

An absolute stain on whatever legacy Biden might have:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/27/opinions/gaza-israel-resigning-state-department-sheline/index.html

[Iceresistance]

15 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Any aid is better than nothing, but what is being dropped is not what can be easily used and it is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount that is desperately needed.  I can see where Hamas is coming from, since these limited drops of limited accuracy certainly can encourage desperate behavior that can lead to death.

The point that is lost in stories like these is that the entire Palestinian population is starving due to the will of Israel.  If the U.S. had any balls, they would tell the Israel to shove it and get the aid in with no (zero) resistance from Israel.  Without us, Israel is NOTHING.  We are weak, and Israel knows it, so they are starving out the Palestinians because they can.

Again, because we are basically arming the Israelis with our weapons and then pretending to care about the Palestinians with our empty outrage, we are putting our own national security at risk for a country that uses us like a desperate sugar daddy.

Other issue is that Hamas is doing everything to steal the aid for their own, there has been confirmed evidence that they have been doing it. That is "Collective Punishment" and exploitation

Hamas wants the war to last as long as possible, to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible