2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Jesse]

Hey, I have no problem getting called out for flaws in logic, reason, or fact. Feel free to point those out. 

 

But I'd appreciate you not calling me names and things like "deceitful", yes. That sounds good.

 

The problem is, you don't seem to think pointing out glaring incongruencies in one's rhetoric versus their posting style falls under any one of those categories, so my hands are kind of tied.

[Guest Sounder]

Hey I meant to say it earlier, but thank you for your service. No one else mentioned that.

Hey thanks, I genuinely do appreciate that.

[TT-SEA]

I think it seems more that way than it really is due to two factors.

 

1. It's my comments more on one "side" that get the ire of the Jesses and Tims of the world, so that's what's noticed more. I make a lot of comments/observations that would be seen by some as more balanced, but they usually get ignored. And so, forgotten.

 

2. When Jim or Money make a post, it's almost always jumped on immediately. As Jesse pointed out, I haven't been on here as much as some of you lately. I could easily critique Jim's statements more, sure, but I'd mostly be repeating the same points others have already made and just piling on. I usually try to look for new angles that haven't been hammered on already.

I will tap out then... you take over criticizing all of Jim's posts and I will lay low. Easy pickings for you... enjoy!

[Front Ranger]

This kind of stuff just makes you come off wiggly. Which is basically what you are trying to say you aren't, I think....

 

"Wiggly", because I gave a reasoned explanation for something? How about pointing out any flaws in logic, reason, or fact in what I said, instead of just labeling it "wiggly"? 

[Front Ranger]

The problem is, you don't seem to think pointing out glaring incongruencies in one's rhetoric versus their posting style falls under any one of those categories, so my hands are kind of tied.

 

What does this even mean? Please provide an example of what you're talking about.

[Jesse]

"Wiggly", because I gave a reasoned explanation for something? How about pointing out any flaws in logic, reason, or fact in what I said, instead of just labeling it "wiggly"? 

 

I don't know. It was the best word I could come up with for it. Seemed fitting.

 

You not owning up to your bias, which even Matt sees apparently, is the brick wall we always eventually come to in this conversation.

[Front Ranger]

I will tap out then... you take over criticizing all of Jim's posts and I will lay low. Easy pickings for you... enjoy!

 

Ha, I think there's more to it than me substituting in for you...and I've pointed out the differences before in the type of hyperbole you engage in vs his painting in very broad strokes.

 

I think a point sort of lost in the discussion today is that you kind of need a thick skin around here. Especially in this thread. That goes for all of us, myself included.

[Jesse]

Ha, I think there's more to it than me substituting in for you...and I've pointed out the differences before in the type of hyperbole you engage in vs his painting in very broad strokes.

 

I think a point sort of lost in the discussion today is that you kind of need a thick skin around here. Especially in this thread. That goes for all of us, myself included.

 

This is all eating into time that I really should be doing homework. Thanks a lot guys!

 

And isn't painting in broad strokes basically a form of hyperbole? 

[Front Ranger]

I don't know. It was the best word I could come up with for it. Seemed fitting.

 

You not owning up to your bias, which even Matt sees apparently, is the brick wall we always eventually come to in this conversation.

 

See, this is just false. I have said repeatedly I am more right-leaning than you. However, as evidenced by both my personal views and my voting record, I am more politically independent and if we're using labels, "moderate", than anything. What am I refusing to own up to?

 

But again, WE ALL HAVE BIAS. Focusing just on each other's literally gets us nowhere. 

 

Like I said, dispute my logic, reason, and facts all you want. But going on and on about bias is pointless.

[snow_wizard]

Well folks, we have proof the Republican town hall meetings are being stacked with liberals. One republican Senator had the brilliant idea to open his meeting with a prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. Most of the people went bat $hit crazy over it. Most Republicans would not react like that.

 

A bunch of intolerant liberals for sure. Nice to see their true colors being shown so clearly.

[Jesse]

Well folks, we have proof the Republican town hall meetings are being stacked with liberals. One republican Senator had the brilliant idea to open his meeting with a prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. Most of the people went bat **** crazy over it. Most Republicans would not react like that.

 

A bunch of intolerant liberals for sure. Nice to see their true colors being shown so clearly.

Get him Jared!

[Guest happ]

Where?

[Jesse]

See, this is just false. I have said repeatedly I am more right-leaning than you. However, as evidenced by both my personal views and my voting record, I am more politically independent and if we're using labels, "moderate", than anything. What am I refusing to own up to?

 

But again, WE ALL HAVE BIAS. Focusing just on each other's literally gets us nowhere. 

 

Like I said, dispute my logic, reason, and facts all you want. But going on and on about bias is pointless.

 

Yeah, see, you still won't do it. I bet it would feel good in a weird way. Kind of like popping a zit.

[Guest Sounder]

See, this is just false. I have said repeatedly I am more right-leaning than you. However, as evidenced by both my personal views and my voting record, I am more politically independent and if we're using labels, "moderate", than anything. What am I refusing to own up to?

 

But again, WE ALL HAVE BIAS. Focusing just on each other's literally gets us nowhere.

 

Like I said, dispute my logic, reason, and facts all you want. But going on and on about bias is pointless.

You are not politically moderate by any stretch of the imagination and you really need to let this go.

 

This kind of assertion isn't unique to flatiron though. For some reason the vast majority of self described "independents" are in reality quite conservative leaning. Embarrassment of the joke the Republican Party has become, perhaps?

[snow_wizard]

Where?

Louisiana.

[Jesse]

Louisiana.

 

Starting a political town hall meeting in what I imagine must have been a government building or at least a secular setting with a prayer is a slap in the face to separation of church and state, which is part of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. Maybe it was conservatives who were angry about it. Aren't they all about the constitution?

[Guest Sounder]

Louisiana.

Liberal constituents don't count!!! Only people that agree with me should be represented!!!

[Deweydog]

I think it seems more that way than it really is due to two factors.

 

1. It's my comments more on one "side" that get the ire of the Jesses and Tims of the world, so that's what's noticed more. I make a lot of comments/observations that would be seen by some as more balanced, but they usually get ignored. And so, forgotten.

 

2. When Jim or Money make a post, it's almost always jumped on immediately. As Jesse pointed out, I haven't been on here as much as some of you lately. I could easily critique Jim's statements more, sure, but I'd mostly be repeating the same points others have already made and just piling on. I usually try to look for new angles that haven't been hammered on already.

Could be part of it, but it smells like more than that.

[Phil]

You are not politically moderate by any stretch of the imagination and you really need to let this go.

 

This kind of assertion isn't unique to flatiron though. For some reason the vast majority of self described "independents" are in reality quite conservative leaning. Embarrassment of the joke the Republican Party has become, perhaps?

He's moderately right of center. I don't know where you lean given your support for Republican-lite Hillary, but I'm guessing you're one of those party > perogative types.

 

And thank you for your service. Should have said that earlier.

[TT-SEA]

Well folks, we have proof the Republican town hall meetings are being stacked with liberals. One republican Senator had the brilliant idea to open his meeting with a prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. Most of the people went bat **** crazy over it. Most Republicans would not react like that.A bunch of intolerant liberals for sure. Nice to see their true colors being shown so clearly.

This is very interesting. I agree that all liberals are completely crazy. I enjoy the daily examples you present to get us very angry. Thanks again Jim. Your posts are extremely informative and non-inflammatory.

[Phil]

Starting a town hall meeting in what I imagine must have been a government building or at least a secular setting with a prayer is a slap in the face to separation of church and state, which is part of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. Maybe it was conservatives who were angry about it. Aren't they all about the constitution?

I thought conservatives were bible-thumping lunatics? Hard to tell if these were constituents or not..maybe they're the breakaway democrats and independents that have fled the Democratic Party in recent years.

[Jesse]

This is very interesting. I agree that all liberals are completely crazy. I enjoy the daily examples you present to get us very angry. Thanks again Jim. Your posts are extremely informative and non-inflammatory.

 

That's some good Flatironing! I haven't seen Flatiron do any Timming yet, though.

[Guest Sounder]

He's moderately right of center. I don't know where you lean given your support for Republican-lite Hillary, but I'm guessing you're one of those party > perogative types.

 

And thank you for your service. Should have said that earlier.

I'm pretty far left. I disagree strongly with the Berniecrat "progessive" wing that refuses to compromise whatsoever, as I believe the best way to accomplish a radically progressive agenda is through baby steps and small concessions over a long period rather than a poorly thought out, knee-jerk push for sweeping reform with a "you're either with me or you're against me" attitude. Also I think free trade and globalism are critical to modern society and that the populist movements we are seeing today are extremely dangerous.

 

Calling Hillary a Republican-lite demonstrates a pretty remarkable ignorance of her actual record and stances on issues.

 

Do you feel good about making death threats toward someone who would LAY DOWN THEIR LIFE, FOR YOUR FREEDOM? I would die for you and your right to claim you lived at 9k feet in the Cascade Mountains, Phil, and this is how you treat me!!! VERY distressing.

[TT-SEA]

I watched the video from Louisiana.   It looks like there were a few people already heckling the representative and then he started the pledge of allegiance.  One old woman was still slapping her knee saying 'we want answers' for the first part.   During the second half of the pledge there was participation from the crowd and less protesting.    

 

It was shocking and I agree with Jim that all liberals are crazy.   Thanks Jim for hunting down today's very poignant example.

 

What should we do with the old woman slapping her knee now that she has shown her true colors?   I think she was implying that the representative was being a hypocrite by praying in the name of Jesus and reciting the pledge.   She probably feels strongly about those things as well.    What should we do with her?

[Tenochtitlan]

I'm pretty far left. I disagree strongly with the Berniecrat "progessive" wing that refuses to compromise whatsoever, as I believe the best way to accomplish a radically progressive agenda is through baby steps and small concessions over a long period rather than a poorly thought out, knee-jerk push for sweeping reform with a "you're either with me or you're against me" attitude. Also I think free trade and globalism are critical to modern society and that the populist movements we are seeing today are extremely dangerous.

 

Calling Hillary a Republican-lite demonstrates a pretty remarkable ignorance of her actual record and stances on issues.

 

Do you feel good about making death threats toward someone who would LAY DOWN THEIR LIFE, FOR YOUR FREEDOM? I would die for you and your right to claim you lived at 9k feet in the Cascade Mountains, Phil, and this is how you treat me!!! VERY distressing.

People are tired of baby steps. A movement for sweeping reform appeals more to many people than a movement for slow incrementalism, perhaps because people are tired of waiting, or because people are frustrated by the constant steps backwards that are taken after the constant steps forward.

[Guest Sounder]

People are tired of baby steps. A movement for sweeping reform appeals more to many people than a movement for slow incrementalism, perhaps because people are tired of waiting, or because people are frustrated by the constant steps backwards that are taken after the constant steps forward.

I'm tired of waiting too, but it's just not realistic. You're never going to see progress if you constantly take an all or nothing approach. That kind of crap is why the country is so polarized today.

[Jesse]

I really hope this doesn't continue too much. You've made your point.

 

Between you, Jesse, and Flatiron this thread is far from a meaningful discussion today. Maybe tomorrow.

 

There has been lots of meaningful discussion today.

 

We just haven't all had our lips wrapped around Trump's tiny privates.

[Tenochtitlan]

He's moderately right of center. I don't know where you lean given your support for Republican-lite Hillary, but I'm guessing you're one of those party > perogative types.

 

And thank you for your service. Should have said that earlier.

I'm curious about why you call Hillary Republican-lite. Can you expand on that? She supports universal health care, decriminilisation of marijuana, neoliberal trade agreements, nuclear power to address climate change, and LGBT rights...on the other hand she does seem fairly authoritarian; she supports the death penalty, was a proponent of the "three strikes you're out" which put more people (especially minorities) in prison, and is (it seems to me) a war hawk.  

[Tenochtitlan]

I'm tired of waiting too, but it's just not realistic. You're never going to see progress if you constantly take an all or nothing approach. That kind of crap is why the country is so polarized today.

 

I'm hopeful that it's more realistic than you think; so many young people supported Bernie. Those people are going to grow up and will take up a larger share of the voting public in future years.

[Jesse]

I'm curious about why you call Hillary Republican-lite. Can you expand on that? She supports universal health care, decriminilisation of marijuana, neoliberal trade agreements, nuclear power to address climate change, and LGBT rights...on the other hand she does seem fairly authoritarian; she supports the death penalty, was a proponent of the "three strikes you're out" which put more people (especially minorities) in prison, and is (it seems to me) a war hawk.  

 

I also don't like the fact that she is in the pocket of corportate donors ( I know, this doesn't make her different from any other politician, but that in and of itself is a problem).

 

Citizens United must be repealed if we are going to get anywhere beyond a kleptocratic oligarchy in this country. Hopefully everyone can agree with that.

[Phil]

I'm pretty far left. I disagree strongly with the Berniecrat "progessive" wing that refuses to compromise whatsoever, as I believe the best way to accomplish a radically progressive agenda is through baby steps and small concessions over a long period rather than a poorly thought out, knee-jerk push for sweeping reform with a "you're either with me or you're against me" attitude. Also I think free trade and globalism are critical to modern society and that the populist movements we are seeing today are extremely dangerous.

 

Calling Hillary a Republican-lite demonstrates a pretty remarkable ignorance of her actual record and stances on issues.

- She was anti-g*y marriage until 5yrs ago or something.

 

- She's a war hawk. She worked very hard to turn Libya into an ash tray.

 

- Her tax plan differed from Paul Ryan's by 5% for those within the top 10%, and was the same for those in the middle class.

 

That's the definition of Republican-lite. Who can vote for that?

 

Do you feel good about making death threats toward someone who would LAY DOWN THEIR LIFE, FOR YOUR FREEDOM? I would die for you and your right to claim you lived at 9k feet in the Cascade Mountains, Phil, and this is how you treat me!!! VERY distressing.

 

I don't make death threats, nor do I wish death on children. I'll never respect that type of behavior, and you're forever tarnished for it, in my book.

 

Surely you must know what a death threat is, having served?

[TT-SEA]

I really hope this doesn't continue too much. You've made your point.

 

Between you, Jesse, and Flatiron this thread is far from a meaningful discussion today. Maybe tomorrow.

 

I am responding to the non-inflammatory and very important post from Jim which illustrates the true colors of all liberals.     I guess maybe you should address Jim if you do not want us discussing such informative posts.   

[Tenochtitlan]

- She was anti-*** marriage until a half decade ago.

 

- She's a war hawk.

 

- Her tax plan differed from Paul Ryan's by 5% for those within the top 10%, and was the same for those in the middle.

 

That's the definition of Republican lite. Who can vote for that?

 

 

 

I don't make death threats, nor do I wish death on children. I'll never respect that type of behavior.

Wow, is that true about her tax plan? If so then her talk about closing tax loopholes for the rich was basically just a front.

 

The thing that bothered me about her was: I felt that she pretended to be more progressive than she is at heart because she saw the appeal of Sanders' politics, and took notes from him. But if you look at her past voting record, which matters to me, I don't see a person who has strong beliefs that line up with my own. And I see an authoritarian streak that I'm not so into (though it's preferable to Trump's combination of authoritarianism and unpredictability).

 

I recognize that she has done positive things in her career as well--she's not all bad, not at all. She would have been a lot better than Trump. But like Trump supporters, I wanted to see someone be president who wasn't from within the moneyed political establishment, I wanted an idealistic president who would fight for peace and equity.

[Jesse]

I'm hopeful that it's more realistic than you think; so many young people supported Bernie. Those people are going to grow up and will take up a larger share of the voting public in future years.

 

Therein lies my greatest hope for the future of this country. Right now we just really need to get through this whole Trump thing unscathed. Hopefully it will give us an opportunity to grow rather than fall apart.

[Tenochtitlan]

I'm tired of waiting too, but it's just not realistic. You're never going to see progress if you constantly take an all or nothing approach. That kind of crap is why the country is so polarized today.

Also, an all or nothing approach has led to lasting change many times in history. Maybe more often than incrementalism.

[Tenochtitlan]

Therein lies my greatest hope for the future of this country. Right now we just really need to get through this whole Trump thing unscathed. Hopefully it will give us an opportunity to grow rather than fall apart.

It's funny having no idea what things will look like in four years. I feel like now is an opportunity for dramatic change, and it will either be really good or really bad. 

[Phil]

I'm curious about why you call Hillary Republican-lite. Can you expand on that? She supports universal health care, decriminilisation of marijuana, neoliberal trade agreements, nuclear power to address climate change, and LGBT rights...on the other hand she does seem fairly authoritarian; she supports the death penalty, was a proponent of the "three strikes you're out" which put more people (especially minorities) in prison, and is (it seems to me) a war hawk.

- Large scale neoliberal trade agreements aren't progressive.

 

- Relentlessly advocating for foreign intervention, including voting for the Iraq war, isn't progressive.

 

- Being against g*y marriage for decades, only flip flopping after being pressured politically, isn't progressive.

 

- Taking millions from foreign governments that stone women to death, then claiming to be "for women" isn't progressive.

 

- Taking millions from Wall Street banks for speeches isn't progressive.

 

I could go on for pages. How any democrat can defend supporting her is beyond me.

[Tenochtitlan]

- Large scale neoliberal trade agreements aren't progressive.

 

- Relentlessly advocating for foreign intervention, including voting for the Iraq war, isn't progressive.

 

- Being against g*y marriage for decades, only flip flopping after being pressured politically, isn't progressive.

 

- Taking millions from foreign governments that stone women to death, then claiming to be "for women" isn't progressive.

 

- Taking millions from Wall Street banks for speeches isn't progressive.

 

I could go on..

I definitely agree with you about neoliberal trade agreements. I'm not at all for those, but I meant it made her a Democrat, not that it made her a progressive, cause they're often not the same thing.

 

It seems like she basically representative of the status quo for the direction American government's been going for quite some time now. None of those things you listed are new, unfortunately. That's why we need change, and not in the "Hope and Change" not-actually-much-change sense. I agree with you that those things you listed are not progressive.

[Jesse]

It's funny having no idea what things will look like in four years. I feel like now is an opportunity for dramatic change, and it will either be really good or really bad. 

 

Yup, we are definitely in a high risk/high reward situation right now for our democracy.

 

Interesting times!

[Phil]

I definitely agree with you about neoliberal trade agreements. I'm not at all for those, but I meant it made her a Democrat, not that it made her a progressive, cause they're often not the same thing.

All the items I listed are supported by/are aspects of the GOP.

 

Neo-conservatives and Neo-liberals are two peas in a pod, IMO.