2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[TT-SEA]

Indeed. People are continuing to miss the point of why Trump won. Based on that they will continue to make inaccurate predictions of what his fate will be. They've been wrong about everything to do with him for months.

 

Right now his base is getting even more solid as the mainstream news outlets continue to make fools of themselves.

 

One interesting development is the pro life wing of the Republican Party which had been unsure about Trump, now like him. They know he has their back since Pence spoke at the Pro Life March in D.C. (which the media barely covered BTW). That was the first time a Government official that high up spoke there.

 

His base is the minority in this country.   The other side is likely getting 'more solid' as well.     A common enemy will do that.   Trump is seemingly an enemy to intelligence and basic maturity.  

 

Pro-life is one aspect... but they could have that with Pence.  

[Deweydog]

And it would result in persecution of innocent people. What is the cost to our democracy? The terrorists win.

Persecution? I don't see it. I suppose if you're looking for things to hate about it/him, you can get there with some creative thinking.

 

Now if this plan is implemented poorly, which is a definite possibility, then I could see that a argument. The expediency with which this was enacted is concerning as it's hard to get everyone on the same page.

[TT-SEA]

Persecution? I don't see it. I suppose if you're looking for things to hate about it, you can get there with some creative thinking.

 

Now if this plan is implemented poorly, which is a definite possibility, then I could see that a argument. The expediency with which this was enacted is concerning as it's hard to get everyone on the same page.

 

 

Frenzied maybe?   Impulsive?    

[Deweydog]

His base is the minority in this country. The other side is getting 'more solid' as well. A common enemy will do that. Trump is seemingly an enemy to intelligence and basic maturity.

Again, things that were very apparent in October.

 

Nothing he has done in his first eight days are a surprise.

[Deweydog]

Frenzied maybe? Impulsive?

It's Trump. And you like hyperbole and inane talking points.

 

A match made in heaven!

[TT-SEA]

Persecution? I don't see it. I suppose if you're looking for things to hate about it/him, you can get there with some creative thinking.

 

Now if this plan is implemented poorly, which is a definite possibility, then I could see that a argument. The expediency with which this was enacted is concerning as it's hard to get everyone on the same page.

 

I am talking about the mob mentality that happens after any attack.   Like what happened after 9/11 to law-abiding Muslims in this country.   Lots of collateral damage.   I would hate to be blamed personally for the things that the Catholic church has done.    Maybe we are all child-rapists?   Take no chances... never can be sure.

[TT-SEA]

Again, things that were very apparent in October.

 

Nothing he has done in his first eight days are a surprise.

 

 

I hate this attitude.   Its one thing for a candidate to act that way.   I honestly think its much more dangerous for the President of the United States to act this way.   For many reasons.   Words and actions carry much more meaning and impact around the world.   

 

So its inane to talk about it because we all knew Trump would be a child in the White House?      Seems so lazy and permissive.   

[Front Ranger]

I know you're probably smarter than this.

 

It's a consistent tactic to apply a present-tense analysis to these types of moves if you're just into political dissent and pandering.

 

If, however, one of these refugees blows up a movie theatre in Chicago there would be real tears, not just symbolic tears, and outcry for more government intervention.

 

Right.

 

And as the article I linked to earlier pointed out, this isn't happening in a vacuum. There has been a marked increase in terrorist plots/attacks in the past 18 months: http://dailysignal.com/2015/09/10/a-timeline-of-73-islamist-terror-plots-since-911/

[Front Ranger]

I am talking about the mob mentality that happens after any attack.   Like what happened after 9/11 to law-abiding Muslims in this country.   Lots of collateral damage.   I would hate to be blamed personally for the things that the Catholic church has done.    Maybe we are all child-rapists?   Take no chances... never can be sure.

 

You've made this analogy several times. But it's actually not a very good one.

 

No segment of the Catholic church has ever espoused belief that priests should be able to sexually assault children. Furthermore, the priests that were guilty of such acts were not inspired to do so based on their religious beliefs. Finally, there was no international organization of Catholic child molesters that was aiding and providing support for these priests to commit those atrocities. 

 

Just a few differences compared to Islamic terrorists. 

[TT-SEA]

You've made this analogy several times. But it's actually not a very good one.

 

No segment of the Catholic church has ever espoused belief that priests should be able to sexually assault children. Furthermore, the priests that were guilty of such acts were not inspired to do so based on their religious beliefs. Finally, there was no international organization of Catholic child molesters that was aiding and providing support for these priests to commit those atrocities. 

 

Just a few differences compared to Islamic terrorists. 

 

 

Just giving an example of innocent people blamed by association with evil.  Much like the Germans living in other European countries following WWII.   Fear mongering leads to lots of collateral damage.    Its a fine line of course.  

[Tenochtitlan]

Persecution? I don't see it. I suppose if you're looking for things to hate about it/him, you can get there with some creative thinking.

 

Now if this plan is implemented poorly, which is a definite possibility, then I could see that a argument. The expediency with which this was enacted is concerning as it's hard to get everyone on the same page.

 

This is true. A lot of the international outcry to the executive order has been based around the fact that people who already have green cards have been denied entry to the country at airports. These are people who have already been living and working here as productive, law-abiding citizens for years. There's really no good reason to prevent them from coming back, and it's adversely affected these people's lives in a huge way.

[Deweydog]

This is true. A lot of the international outcry to the executive order has been based around the fact that people who already have green cards have been denied entry to the country at airports. These are people who have already been living and working here as productive, law-abiding citizens for years. There's really no good reason to prevent them from coming back, and it's adversely affected these people's lives in a huge way.

 

I agree 100%.  

 

It's incumbent upon the administration to make sure this doesn't continue, but it's happened on a very small scale thus far.  If people are using it simply as a means of political leverage or to further an alarmist argument then they are just part of the overall problem.  

[Front Ranger]

Just giving an example of innocent people blamed by association with evil.  Much like the Germans living in other European countries following WWII.   Fear mongering leads to lots of collateral damage.    Its a fine line of course.  

 

So do you think Trump's refugee policy is fear-mongering, or based on fear-mongering?

[TT-SEA]

So do you think Trump's refugee policy is fear-mongering, or based on fear-mongering?

 

 

I think most everything Trump does is based in fear mongering.   I don't think all of his proposals are bad at face value.

[Deweydog]

I hate this attitude.   Its one thing for a candidate to act that way.   I honestly think its much more dangerous for the President of the United States to act this way.   For many reasons.   Words and actions carry much more meaning and impact around the world.   

 

So its inane to talk about it because we all knew Trump would be a child in the White House?      Seems so lazy and permissive.   

 

It's not an attitude.  It's reality.

 

You just like to stick to the same talking points about how he's a man-child, blah blah blah.  It played out repeatedly during his overexposed rise through the primaries and even more so during the general, yet he tipped the scales where it counted most and beat out a massive political machine drenched in arrogance and apathy. You make it sound like the last eight days have created a bait-and-switch revelation that has stirred the masses into planning an overthrow.  

 

An attitude on the left with nothing but grandiose overreactions to all things Trump will desensitize the electorate for 2018 and 2020.  It also makes the left look really stupid in that, what, they were biding their time?  Waiting for Trump to be handed the keys before the REALLY pulled out all the stops for the race?  Stategery.  

[Tenochtitlan]

I agree 100%.  

 

It's incumbent upon the administration to make sure this doesn't continue, but it's happened on a very small scale thus far.  If people are using it simply as a means of political leverage or to further an alarmist argument then they are just part of the overall problem.  

I think a certain degree of alarmism is necessary because if nobody raises an alarm when they see something like this happening, it's more likely to continue unabated. I'm glad that people protested at JFK and other airports, because it shows that people can care about each other even when they're from different walks of life. If we didn't raise an alarm, that would be a troubling sign, to me.

[Deweydog]

I think most everything Trump does is based in fear mongering.   I don't think all of his proposals are bad at face value.

 

This is a weak argument as the right AND left both use fear on a regular basis to push agendas.  

[Front Ranger]

I think most everything Trump does is based in fear mongering.   I don't think all of his proposals are bad at face value.

 

Well, motivations aside, the main thing we can judge are the results - what is he actually doing, what do his policies actually mean? I would encourage people to look more at facts than the multitude of feelings/opinions out there right now.

[Deweydog]

I think a certain degree of alarmism is necessary because if nobody raises an alarm when they see something like this happening, it's more likely to continue unabated. I'm glad that people protested at JFK and other airports, because it shows that people can care about each other even when they're from different walks of life. If we didn't raise an alarm, that would be a troubling sign, to me.

 

Sure.  If it's an issue, it needs to be dealt with.  But I don't know how the reactions of the last couple days can be fairly considered a proportional response.  

 

It sets a very unrealistic precedence for freakoutedness.  Eventually those who are not dug in so deeply against this administration will tire of this constant barrage of outrage.  

[Tenochtitlan]

Sure.  If it's an issue, it needs to be dealt with.  But I don't know how the reaction of the last couple days can be fairly considered a proportional response.  

 

It sets a very unrealistic precedence for freakoutedness.  Eventually those who are not dug in so deeply against this administration will tire of this constant barrage of outrage.  

I don't even think outrage is necessary. I don't exactly feel outraged. It's just that I see something happening that's unfair, and am glad that people are talking about it and making a big deal about it. Apathy is our enemy. 

 

Protesting seems like a reasonable response to me. Maybe the upside-down statue of liberty not, I'll grant you that. Let's save that for when/if things get *really* bad.

[TT-SEA]

Well, motivations aside, the main thing we can judge are the results - what is he actually doing, what do his policies actually mean? I would encourage people to look more at facts than the multitude of feelings/opinions out there right now.

 

 

His delivery is an unprepared and impulsive mess.    And he is truly paranoid.     Never good things in leadership.

 

He defeats himself at every move.    

[Tenochtitlan]

His delivery is an unprepared and impulsive mess.    And he is truly paranoid.     Never good things.  

 

He defeats himself at every move. 

Yup. Until recently I hadn't thought about Trump's personality or personal life much, only his politics. His denial of climate change and fast-and-looseness with the idea of using nuclear weapons was enough for me to think we were about to head in the wrong direction. But now I'm starting to think that his personality itself puts our country in danger. Because the statements that the president makes are heard around the world, and his words alone will have a huge impact on foreign relations. It's not a position that should be held by somebody with a short attention span, as he seems to have.

[TT-SEA]

Yup. Until recently I hadn't thought about Trump's personality or personal life much, only his politics. His denial of climate change and fast-and-looseness with the idea of using nuclear weapons was enough for me to think we were about to head in the wrong direction. But now I'm starting to think that his personality itself puts our country in danger. Because the statements that the president makes are heard around the world, and his words alone will have a huge impact on foreign relations. It's not a position that should be held by somebody with a short attention span, as he seems to have.

 

This is exactly what is bothering me.    

[Front Ranger]

His delivery is an unprepared and impulsive mess.    And he is truly paranoid.     Never good things in leadership.

 

He defeats himself at every move.    

 

What is your point? You won't find me defending his leadership or communication.

 

That's not what people are freaking out about.

[TT-SEA]

What is your point? You won't find me defending his leadership or communication.

 

That's not what people are freaking out about.

 

I think that is really the heart of the matter for most people.   That is why its hard to define what people are protesting.

 

Feels sort out of control because of his childish and impetuous behavior.    All too real now.  No more guessing whether the gravity of the office would bring about some maturity.  

[Front Ranger]

I think that is really the heart of the matter for most people.   That is why its hard to define what people are protesting.

 

Feels sort out of control because of his childish and impetuous behavior.    All too real now.  No more guessing whether the gravity of the office would bring about some maturity.  

 

I think some irresponsible reporting/fear-mongering by the media, along with mob mentality and social media echo chambers, are playing a role as well. Most of the signs you see protesters holding don't actually address what has happened with Trump's executive orders.

 

Other than some ill-advised tweets, what exactly is this "out-of-control", childish behavior you're citing? 

[Tenochtitlan]

I think some irresponsible reporting/fear-mongering by the media, along with mob mentality and social media echo chambers, are playing a role as well. Most of the signs you see protesters holding don't actually address what has happened with Trump's executive orders.

 

Other than some ill-advised tweets, what exactly is this "out-of-control", childish behavior you're citing? 

I dunno, I looked up "JFK protestors refugees" because I have no life and the signs I see are: "Refugees are welcome here" "You are welcome in our community" "Legal visas = let them in!" "#No ban resist!" 

 

Granted there are some that are more emotional like "America is ashamed," but the point is, it's not true. Most or at least many of the signs I see do address the executive order.

[TT-SEA]

I think some irresponsible reporting/fear-mongering by the media, along with mob mentality and social media echo chambers, are playing a role as well. Most of the signs you see protesters holding don't actually address what has happened with Trump's executive orders.

 

Other than some ill-advised tweets, what exactly is this "out-of-control", childish behavior you're citing?

The tweets are a huge deal... and then consider the content such as the attacks on the press and name calling. Its disgraceful.

 

The voter fraud and inauguration photo discussions were also indicative of silly pettiness.

 

Tweeting to the president of Mexico about their meeting. Feels out of control.

 

The poor implementation of the travel ban.

 

None of it should instill confidence in intelligent people. He is defeating himself at every move.

[Front Ranger]

I dunno, I looked up "JFK protestors refugees" because I have no life and the signs I see are: "Refugees are welcome here" "You are welcome in our community" "Legal visas = let them in!" "#No ban resist!" 

 

Granted there are some that are more emotional like "America is ashamed," but the point is, it's not true. Most or at least many of the signs I see do address the executive order.

 

But do those protesters realize that from 2011-14, the Obama administration let in hardly any Syrian refugees? Where was the outcry then?

 

Also, the cap Trump set on refugees/year was 50,000. That is about average for how many the Bush/Obama administrations admitted over their 4 terms.

[Tenochtitlan]

But do those protesters realize that from 2011-14, the Obama administration let in hardly any Syrian refugees? Where was the outcry then?

 

Also, the cap Trump set on refugees/year was 50,000. That is about average for how many the Bush/Obama administrations admitted over their 4 terms.

I wasn't talking about that, I was only saying that people are indeed responding to the executive order...

[Tenochtitlan]

But do those protesters realize that from 2011-14, the Obama administration let in hardly any Syrian refugees? Where was the outcry then?

 

Also, the cap Trump set on refugees/year was 50,000. That is about average for how many the Bush/Obama administrations admitted over their 4 terms.

Whether or not there was, does not change what is happening today. 

 

However one difference like I said before is how people with green cards have been disallowed reentry to the US. That is not something Obama's administration ever did. 

[Front Ranger]

The tweets are a huge deal... and then consider the content such as the attacks on the press and name calling. Its disgraceful.

 

The voter fraud and inauguration photo discussions were also indicative of silly pettiness.

 

Tweeting to the president of Mexico about their meeting. Feels out of control.

 

The poor implementation of the travel ban.

 

None of it should instill confidence with intelligent people.

 

1. Yes, the tweets are disgraceful. I disagree that they're a "huge deal" worth freaking out about.

 

2. I think voter fraud is an issue, but Trump addressed it the wrong way. The inauguration photo discussions were somewhat petty, but are you then giving the media a free pass for focusing so much on those photos and doing a shoddy reporting job with some photos leading up to that?

 

3. Yes, the tweets directed at Mexico were a poor approach. However, since then Trump and Nieto have talked and agreed to avoid that in the future: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2017/01/27/trump-and-mexican-president-promise-to-end-twitter-wars-n2277719

 

4. As dewey said, the implementation did seem a little hasty, and of course there will always be hiccups with something like that. As long as they admit travelers that should be allowed (green cards, etc) once the bugs are worked out, the protesting has probably been a bit of an overreaction thus far. 

[Front Ranger]

I wasn't talking about that, I was only saying that people are indeed responding to the executive order...

 

Yes, they're responding to it like they don't really understand it. And I've seen plenty of "NO MUSLIM BAN", etc type signs that address something that didn't actually happen.

[MossMan]

Go NFC!!

[Front Ranger]

Whether or not there was, does not change what is happening today. 

 

However one difference like I said before is how people with green cards have been disallowed reentry to the US. That is not something Obama's administration ever did. 

 

It makes those protesters hypocrites, for only caring about the refugees when it suits their politics. 

[Tenochtitlan]

It makes those protesters hypocrites, for only caring about the refugees when it suits their politics. 

 I didn't pay much attention to politics in 2011, so I can't really refute what you're saying without trying to dig up a bunch of old stuff via Google. But I think if Obama really did place a similar ban on refugees, protests should have happened. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm glad they are happening today, and why should it? Better 1 out of 2 than 0 out of 2.

[ShawniganLake]

Go NFC!!

You may need to start a new sports thread. This one has been overrun.

[snow_wizard]

The meltdown in Hollywood continues. My wife and I turned on the Screen Actors Guild Awards and in less than 2 minutes one of the actors gave an anti Trump speech. Going to be a wild 4 years!

[snow_wizard]

I'm almost sorry I didn't vote for Trump now. Anyone who can drive the left this crazy is alright in my book.

 

Just for the record...I did NOT vote for Hillary either.

[TT-SEA]

1. Yes, the tweets are disgraceful. I disagree that they're a "huge deal" worth freaking out about.

 

2. I think voter fraud is an issue, but Trump addressed it the wrong way. The inauguration photo discussions were somewhat petty, but are you then giving the media a free pass for focusing so much on those photos and doing a shoddy reporting job with some photos leading up to that?

 

3. Yes, the tweets directed at Mexico were a poor approach. However, since then Trump and Nieto have talked and agreed to avoid that in the future: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2017/01/27/trump-and-mexican-president-promise-to-end-twitter-wars-n2277719

 

4. As dewey said, the implementation did seem a little hasty, and of course there will always be hiccups with something like that. As long as they admit travelers that should be allowed (green cards, etc) once the bugs are worked out, the protesting has probably been a bit of an overreaction thus far.

Stop saying "freaking out". Its patronizing. If the constant barage of chidish tweets are disgraceful then it should be mentioned and discussed. Are we just supposed to ignore the paranoid tantrums of the president? Might be something important in there.

 

The inauguration photos were a valid and relatively unimportant story on the day after. Instead Trump decided to make it a much bigger story and put his deep paranoia and insecurities on display.

 

The Mexican government put that statement in... Trump left it out.

 

And then you have Bannon telling the press to keep its mouth shut.

 

All feels sort out of control.