2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Deweydog]

This conversation wouldn't be taking place if it was snowing outside.

[BLI snowman]

Trump brand steaks also make great adult diapers I hear. Very absorbant.

A little out of my price range. The Bernies were free.

[Jesse]

The definition of hyperbole is not BS. That is fact.

 

I definitely don't agree with Jim on some things, but at least he doesn't create straw man arguments constantly. Sorry I don't lay into him as much as you'd like, as much as you do. 

 

This is a joke right?

 

HIs logical fallacies are frequent and often glaring. And made all the worse by the fact that he doesn't even seem to be aware of them and appears to actually buy into extreme views rather than just mocking them.

 

Do you honestly think someone who blindly buys into extreme views is better than someone who sees through that kind of thinking and routinely mocks it?

[Jesse]

A little out of my price range. The Bernies were free.

 

Then stop mooching off the system. Either get a job or s**t your fruit of the looms like a true red blooded American.

[Jesse]

This conversation wouldn't be taking place if it was snowing outside.

 

Is it snowing at your location? I imagine you must be benefiting from a little elevation up there above the fray.

[Front Ranger]

This is a joke right?

 

HIs logical fallacies are frequent and often glaring. And made all the worse by the fact that he doesn't even seem to be aware of them and appears to actually buy into extreme views rather than just mocking them.

 

Do you honestly think someone who blindly buys into extreme views is better than someone who sees through that kind of thinking and routinely mocks it?

 

Hyperbole = logical fallacy. Not every logical fallacy = hyperbole.

 

I'm not going to rank the posters here. We all have our faults. Jim goes too far, and certainly falls into logical fallacies.

 

But I really dislike the kind of logical fallacies that are intentionally built to just attack the "opponent", rather than actually use reason or address facts. There's just way too much of that on here. Typical of political discussions, sadly.

 

And the most common one, and one I will continue to call out, is using hyperbole to mock other viewpoints.

[Anti Marine Layer]

Just a few things. I wonder if a more traditional conservative were to be elected as President rather than Trump if there would still be so much anger from the left.

Never more than until after Obama's presidency have I heard the words "racist" and "bigot" from the left. These people have been spoiled by all their new rights, specifically LGBT rights. Prior to Obama, most people from the world (not just the United States) were against same-sex marriage, considering it immoral. Obama and Hillary used to be in favor of traditional marriage. Now anyone who believes in traditional marriage and does not support same-sex marriage is considered hateful and intolerant.

Obama celebrated "marriage equality" as one of the greatest accomplishments of his presidency. Remember again, he used to support traditional marriage. But how is it really equality? It is not the same thing. Heterosexual couples have the ability to create babies through sex. Homosexual couples do not. They either need to adopt children or create them using technology. Children should also have the right to both a motherly and fatherly figure.

Many women are also terrified they will lose their right to abortion. They consider pro-lifers to be intolerant as the protests in front of the Supreme Court are demonstrating. Why should women have the right to murder unborn babies? Blacks used to not be considered persons in the days of slavery. Now unborn babies are not considered persons. Shouldn't the liberals be tolerant of EVERYONE?

 

Yes, there are times when the woman's life is in danger from the fetus, and in those cases, abortion should be allowed. But I have heard some women want abortions just because the pregnancy is an inconvenience to them. Face it. Life can be tough sometimes. It's not all fun and easy. Other times it may be women who have an unwanted pregnancy because they are too young to support a child or the father has left them. This is why sex was supposed to be limited to marriage.

Why do liberals hate Christians and support Muslims when both religions consider homosexuality immoral? Also if some people claiming to be Christians were to commit a whole bunch of terrorist attacks, would liberals then go around claiming Christianity is a peaceful religion and support them the same way they do Muslims?

So basically the left, in some ways, wants freedom from morality and anyone with traditional moral values held through the centuries is a hateful, intolerant bigot.

[Heavy Snow]

I love the idea of assisted suicide. Why do you dislike it?

I just feel another person shouldn't assist in taking another persons life. When I was young I first heard about this and how Oregon was the only state doing it and this made me uneasy that it was just in Oregon. Now there are a handful or so of states legally allowing this. I can't begin to imagine the pain some of these terminally ill people have but there should be ways to minimize the pain like using marijuana. Then as medical technology advances happen these people can get the help they need.

[Front Ranger]

Remember when Tim was the only one obsessing over Jim?

[TT-SEA]

Remember when Tim was the only one obsessing over Jim?

Its the same Jim... just easier for others to see the reality of his close-minded views once Trump and Bannon came to power.

 

He does the same thing with weather but that is mostly harmless. Just annoying.

[Jesse]

Remember when Tim was the only one obsessing over Jim?

Hyperbole!

 

I'm hardly "obsessing" over Jim. I've made a handful of posts the last day or two.

 

So hard to watch this hyperbole. I absolutely hate when people use that to combat an opposing point. So unfair!! I'm calling it out right now.

[Front Ranger]

Its the same Jim... just easier for others to see the reality of his close-minded views once Trump and Bannon came to power.

 

He does the same thing with weather but that is mostly harmless. Just annoying.

 

It's also annoying when people focus more on the faults of one poster, and insist everyone else focus equally on those faults, rather than facts and logic.

 

Buy hey, I guess we can just go on spending most of our time in this thread "reducing our opponents to madmen and monsters".

[Front Ranger]

I'm hardly "obsessing" over Jim. I've made a handful of posts the last day or two.

 

There have been many instances recently when I'll make a point (to whoever), and your only response revolves around Jim and how I need to make the same point to him. As if Jim being wrong or whatever about something means I have no right to call anyone else out on anything else, unless I spend exactly the same amount of time on Jim.

 

Annoying, unnecessary, and counter productive. Quite Tim-like.

[TT-SEA]

There have been many instances recently when I'll make a point (to whoever), and your only response revolves around Jim and how I need to make the same point to him. As if Jim being wrong or whatever about something means I have no right to call anyone else out on anything else, unless I spend exactly the same amount of time on Jim.

 

Annoying, unnecessary, and counter productive. Quite Tim-like.

 

You also said that you hold us to a higher standard than Jim.   

[Front Ranger]

I don't like Trump's SCOTUS pick, I would like to have seen a more moderate candidate who's down the middle on issues. The one good thing I like about Gorsuch is that he's against assisted suicide. I hate that Oregon allows it and I hope he can reverse it. He wrote a book on it called "The Future of Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia" and came here to Oregon to study our law. 

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/01/neil_gorsuch_cited_oregon_law_in_his_assisted_suicide_book.html

 

Regardless of one's views on euthanasia, I think Trump could have done a lot worse. At least Gorsuch has had a lot of bi-partisan support to this point (Obama, Clinton, and Biden all voted to confirm him previously), something desperately needed in our current government.

[Jesse]

There have been many instances recently when I'll make a point (to whoever), and your only response revolves around Jim and how I need to make the same point to him. As if Jim being wrong or whatever about something means I have no right to call anyone else out on anything else, unless I spend exactly the same amount of time on Jim.

 

Annoying, unnecessary, and counter productive. Quite Tim-like.

You are a spin master, and now putting words into my mouth. Being more fair in your approach if you are going to play cheif instigator here does not necessarily mean exactly 50/50. Maybe a little closer to that than the current 90/10 though.

 

And of course you got rid of the hyperbole part. You went directly against what you have spent the past hour preaching about when you said I am "obsessing" over Jim.

[Jesse]

Regardless of one's views on euthanasia, I think Trump could have done a lot worse. At least Gorsuch has had a lot of bi-partisan support to this point (Obama, Clinton, and Biden all voted to confirm him previously), something desperately needed in our current government.

I agree with this. I like the fact that he seems to have some bipartisan support. From everything I have read up on him he seems like a good choice.

[Front Ranger]

You also said that you hold us to a higher standard than Jim.   

 

Where?

[Deweydog]

Jim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Front Ranger]

You are a spin master, and now putting words into my mouth. Being more fair in your approach if you are going to play cheif instigator here does not necessarily mean exactly 50/50. Maybe a little closer to that than the current 90/10 though.

 

And of course you got rid of the hyperbole part. You went directly against what you have spent the past hour preaching about when you said I am "obsessing" over Jim.

 

Well, continue to focus on percentages of my posts to certain posters if you really feel it's so important to track. Honestly, I respond to what I see, and if a bunch of people have already responded with the same points I would make, I usually don't make them.

 

I have expressed opposing viewpoints on here with everyone from Phil, to Dewey, to Jim, to iFred, to Tim, to you. That's fact. I don't play favorites, I don't come on here looking for certain posters to attack or protect. Some people here almost always take sides with the same people. Not saying I'm better, but that's just not me. Just depends on the issue and course of discussion.

 

Slight exaggeration is not the same as outright hyperbole. If you can't see the difference, I'm not going down that rabbit hole with you, as that truly would be a purely semantics discussion. 

[TT-SEA]

I guess we are now on bad terms with Australia as well... travel ban?   

 

That would suck.   We wanted to go to Sydney at some point soon.  

[Tenochtitlan]

Just a few things. I wonder if a more traditional conservative were to be elected as President rather than Trump if there would still be so much anger from the left.

 

Never more than until after Obama's presidency have I heard the words "racist" and "bigot" from the left. These people have been spoiled by all their new rights, specifically LGBT rights. Prior to Obama, most people from the world (not just the United States) were against same-sex marriage, considering it immoral. Obama and Hillary used to be in favor of traditional marriage. Now anyone who believes in traditional marriage and does not support same-sex marriage is considered hateful and intolerant.

 

Obama celebrated "marriage equality" as one of the greatest accomplishments of his presidency. Remember again, he used to support traditional marriage. But how is it really equality? It is not the same thing. Heterosexual couples have the ability to create babies through sex. Homosexual couples do not. They either need to adopt children or create them using technology. Children should also have the right to both a motherly and fatherly figure.

 

Many women are also terrified they will lose their right to abortion. They consider pro-lifers to be intolerant as the protests in front of the Supreme Court are demonstrating. Why should women have the right to murder unborn babies? Blacks used to not be considered persons in the days of slavery. Now unborn babies are not considered persons. Shouldn't the liberals be tolerant of EVERYONE?

 

Yes, there are times when the woman's life is in danger from the fetus, and in those cases, abortion should be allowed. But I have heard some women want abortions just because the pregnancy is an inconvenience to them. Face it. Life can be tough sometimes. It's not all fun and easy. Other times it may be women who have an unwanted pregnancy because they are too young to support a child or the father has left them. This is why sex was supposed to be limited to marriage.

 

Why do liberals hate Christians and support Muslims when both religions consider homosexuality immoral? Also if some people claiming to be Christians were to commit a whole bunch of terrorist attacks, would liberals then go around claiming Christianity is a peaceful religion and support them the same way they do Muslims?

 

So basically the left, in some ways, wants freedom from morality and anyone with traditional moral values held through the centuries is a hateful, intolerant bigot.

LGBT rights are about a lot more than just marriage. In fact for me, marriage is one of the least important parts of it, but it's what's been most talked about because it's so controversial and because it's the main concern for many of the more powerful people behind the LGBT rights movement (i.e. they want to be able to get married). But LGBT rights are also about addressing things like: the fact that trans people die way earlier on average and have a far higher suicide rate than people who aren't trans; workplace discrimination; helping out kids who are homeless often because they've been kicked out of their parents' homes for not turning out the way they were supposed to; and dealing with the harassment that people who don't fit in face all the time. I'm sure there's other stuff I'm leaving out. 

 

To improve the lot for people who face these problems, who didn't used to have much of a voice at all and were either hated or ignored by most people or forced to not be themselves, is not really "spoiling" them, unless you mean we are starting to "spoil" them the same way everyone else has always been "spoiled." Creating equality for a previously less-than-equal group of people is not wrong.

[TT-SEA]

What ever happened to the hourly barrage of WikiLeaks???       Was that just to get Trump elected?  

 

Can we see all of the e-mails flying around the Trump administration?    I know Trump does not use e-mail... but there must be some doozies within the administration by now.

 

Seems fair that we should also get to see those... since they published every little detail of the communications amongst team Hillary.    Even though most of the time I could not even figure out what was so wrong in the leaked messages.  

 

I wonder what tricks that Bannon has come up with to operate under the radar.    Crooked Hillary!!   

[Front Ranger]

LGBT rights are about a lot more than just marriage. In fact for me, marriage is one of the least important parts of it, but it's what's been most talked about because it's so controversial and because it's the main concern for many of the more powerful people behind the LGBT rights movement (i.e. they want to be able to get married). But LGBT rights are also about addressing things like: the fact that trans people die way earlier on average and have a far higher suicide rate than people who aren't trans; workplace discrimination; helping out kids who are homeless often because they've been kicked out of their parents' homes for not turning out the way they were supposed to; and dealing with the harassment that people who don't fit in face all the time. I'm sure there's other stuff I'm leaving out. 

 

To improve the lot for people who face these problems, who didn't used to have much of a voice at all and were either hated or ignored by most people or forced to not be themselves, is not really "spoiling" them, unless you mean we are starting to "spoil" them the same way everyone else has always been "spoiled." Creating equality for a previously less-than-equal group of people is not wrong.

 

I guess the question to ask here: is this due to a lack of rights or other factors? From what I understand, the main reasons up to now have been post-op risks and much higher rates of HIV/AIDS than the general population. And the suicide rate, as you mention.

[Front Ranger]

What ever happened to the hourly barrage of WikiLeaks???       Was that just to get Trump elected?  

 

Can we see all of the e-mails flying around the Trump administration?    I know Trump does not use e-mail... but there must be some doozies within the administration by now.

 

Seems fair that we should also get to see those... since they published every little detail of the communications amongst team Hillary.    Even though most of the time I could not even figure out what was so wrong in the leaked messages.  

 

I wonder what tricks that Bannon has come up with to operate under the radar.    Crooked Hillary!!   

 

Bored?

[TT-SEA]

Seems to be some momentum in England to stop Trump from visiting the country...

 

http://fortune.com/2017/01/30/donald-trump-queen-elizabeth-petition/

[Jesse]

Bored?

What's good for the goose!

[Tenochtitlan]

I guess the question to ask here: is this due to a lack of rights or other factors? From what I understand, the main reasons up to now have been post-op risks and much higher rates of HIV/AIDS than the general population. And the suicide rate, as you mention.

Well, with suicide, the National Transgender Discrimination Study found that 41% of trans people have attempted suicide, compared to 4.6% of the national average for all people. Trans people face a lot of stigmatization, even in places like Seattle and Bellingham but a lot more in less liberal places, and...that stigmatization is a huge stressor for people in various ways. Here is a quote from that study:

 

• "Homelessness: Being denied housing for being transgender had a big impact on the likelihood of a suicide attempt. Those who experienced this kind of discrimination but found another place to live had a fairly high attempt rate (54 percent), but those who wound up homeless had an even higher rate (69 percent)."

"

 

And it's not hard to imagine, if your family rejects you because of who you are, that's not too good for your mental health.

• Family Rejection: The suicide attempt rates among those whose families supported them after coming out as trans was 33 percent, while those who experienced rejection from friends or family faced higher rates. For example, among those whose parents or other family members stopped speaking with them, the attempt rate was 57 percent."

[Front Ranger]

 

 

Well, with suicide, the National Transgender Discrimination Study found that 41% of trans people have attempted suicide, compared to 4.6% of the national average for all people. Trans people face a lot of stigmatization, even in places like Seattle and Bellingham but a lot more in less liberal places, and...that stigmatization is a huge stressor for people in various ways. Here is a quote from that study:

 

• "Homelessness: Being denied housing for being transgender had a big impact on the likelihood of a suicide attempt. Those who experienced this kind of discrimination but found another place to live had a fairly high attempt rate (54 percent), but those who wound up homeless had an even higher rate (69 percent)."

"

And it's not hard to imagine, if your family rejects you because of who you are, that's not too good for your mental health.

• Family Rejection: The suicide attempt rates among those whose families supported them after coming out as trans was 33 percent, while those who experienced rejection from friends or family faced higher rates. For example, among those whose parents or other family members stopped speaking with them, the attempt rate was 57 percent."

I'm sure discrimination/stress can play a role, but it seems like no matter what the circumstances, transgender people are far more likely than the general population to attempt suicide.

 

This will offend some I'm sure, but the obvious question to me is a chicken/egg one: are trans people more suicidal in general because they are trans, or are they more suicidal because of the reasons they became trans? A lot of people who are trans have struggled with their own self-worth and identity, and some go trans thinking it will make them happier - but that may not address the root cause of their pain.

 

It's a complicated and sensitive issue, but I think sometimes the symptoms are mistaken for the illness, if that makes sense.

[Tenochtitlan]

I'm sure discrimination/stress can play a role, but it seems like no matter what the circumstances, transgender people are far more likely than the general population to attempt suicide.

 

This will offend some I'm sure, but the obvious question to me is a chicken/egg one: are trans people more suicidal in general because they are trans, or are they more suicidal because of the reasons they became trans? A lot of people who are trans have struggled with their own self-worth and identity, and some go trans thinking it will make them happier - but that may not address the root cause of their pain.

 

It's a complicated and sensitive issue, but I think sometimes the symptoms are mistaken for the illness, if that makes sense.

Oh dear. Ok. 

[Front Ranger]

Oh dear. Ok.

To be clear, I wasn't calling trans an "illness". I was using an analogy.

 

Does it not make sense? Those that inherently struggle with self-worth and identity are more likely to be depressed and suicidal. I think trans people are suicidal for the same root reasons as anyone else, but that population is also more likely to experience those struggles in the first place.

 

This would explain the far higher suicide rates across the board, regardless of circumstances.

 

I'm looking for answers that make logical sense, politically correct or not.

[Tenochtitlan]

To be clear, I wasn't calling trans an "illness". I was using an analogy.

 

Does it not make sense? Those that inherently struggle with self-worth and identity are more likely to be depressed and suicidal. I think trans people are suicidal for the same root reasons as anyone else, but that population is also more likely to experience those struggles in the first place.

All I can say is that I'm guessing you don't have any trans friends, so you're not aware of how much stigma they face.

[Front Ranger]

All I can say is that I'm guessing you don't have any trans friends, so you're not aware of how much stigma they face.

Ha, funny you say that. I wasn't going to bring it up, but I actually have gotten to know a couple trans people. Their stories are different, of course, but I wanted to understand better so I've done a little research and talked about it with others who are more in touch with that population than myself.

 

I'm well aware of the stigma. That doesn't explain away the extremely high suicide rates, though.

[Tenochtitlan]

Ha, funny you say that. I wasn't going to bring it up, but I actually have gotten to know a couple trans people. Their stories are different, of course, but I wanted to understand better so I've done a little research and talked about it with others who are more in touch with that population than myself.

 

I'm well aware of the stigma. That doesn't explain away the extremely high suicide rates, though.

Alright, that's fair. And you don't see how for example, if your parents kicked you out of your house and refused to talk to you anymore because you came out, that might make you want to die?

[Front Ranger]

Alright, that's fair. And you don't see how for example, if your parents kicked you out of your house and refused to talk to you anymore because you came out, that might make you want to die?

Well, that would be tough. I think some of it would depend on what type of support system I had besides my family. Personally I don't believe circumstances play the largest role in suicidal behavior. Research largely backs this up. Some people do become deeply depressed due to severe stress or circumstances, but a lot of times genetics and mental disorders like bipolar make people more susceptible to suicidal behavior than "life factors". I have experienced this first hand in my own family.

 

In addition, the hormonal changes that some trans people undergo may make them more susceptible to severe depression.

[Tenochtitlan]

Well, that would be tough. I think some of it would depend on what type of support system I had besides my family. Personally I don't believe circumstances play the largest role in suicidal behavior. Research largely backs this up. Some people do become deeply depressed due to severe stress or circumstances, but a lot of times genetics and mental disorders like bipolar make people more susceptible to suicidal behavior than "life factors". I have experienced this first hand in my own family.

 

In addition, the hormonal changes that some trans people undergo may make them more susceptible to severe depression.

Well how do you explain those statistics then? If your parents outright reject you it is a *huge* deal and some people don't have a long-term support system outside of their family to the extent where they can find someone else to take them in. Then they may end up homeless. that's a big part of why 40% of homeless youth are LGBT.

[snow_wizard]

There were riots last night at UC Berkeley over a Breitbart editor who was scheduled to speak there. President Trump has threatened to cut off funding to the university as a result. Pretty D**n ugly.

[Jesse]

There were riots last night at UC Berkeley over a Breitbart editor who was scheduled to speak there. President Trump has threatened to cut off funding to the university as a result. Pretty D**n ugly.

 

How petty. A handful of anarchists take it as an opportunity to destroy things and the whole university has to pay?

[TT-SEA]

How petty. A handful of anarchists take it as an opportunity to destroy things and the whole university has to pay?

 

Hyperbole alert!   Everyone on the left is an anarchist... and by the same logic then everyone on the right is a card carrying member of the KKK and actively lynching black people.  

 

I assume that Jim is fairly excited about Trump cutting off funding to UC Berkeley... which includes the conservatives there who coordinated the event last night.   I am sure Trump can shut down one of the most prestigious universities in the country (with thousands of innocent students) with no backlash.     King Trump!     

[Deweydog]

Nice to see the right to protest and free speech walking hand and hand last night.

 

Oh wait...