2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Front Ranger]

It's interesting that you can find so many examples of the right saying ridiculous things about Obama's executive overreach. Very similar to some of the things the left are saying about Trump recently, yet right-wingers and their apologists now act like it's completely unheard of and uncalled for.

 

And suddenly all of the protesters are now disruptive idiots, while in the case of the tea party and other anti-Obama movements they were freedom fighters.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/25/obama-immigration-and-10-words-in-the-constitution-that-mean-mr-president-dont-be-a-king/?utm_term=.359539d2b8c0

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4610057025001/?#sp=show-clips

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boehner-obama-is-acting-like-a-king/

 

http://thehill.com/video/senate/277299-rand-paul-obama-acting-like-a-king-or-a-monarch-on-guns

 

For the record, I think both assertions are extreme. But how quickly we forget...

 

Yeah, there were plenty of people on the right who were irrational about Obama.

 

But you honestly can't make an apples to apples comparison between that and the recent hysteria over Trump. It's really not close.

[BLI snowman]

It's interesting that you can find so many examples of the right saying ridiculous things about Obama's executive overreach. Very similar to some of the things the left are saying about Trump recently, yet right-wingers and their apologists now act like it's completely unheard of and uncalled for.

 

And suddenly all of the protesters are now disruptive idiots, while in the case of the tea party and other anti-Obama movements they were freedom fighters.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/25/obama-immigration-and-10-words-in-the-constitution-that-mean-mr-president-dont-be-a-king/?utm_term=.359539d2b8c0

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4610057025001/?#sp=show-clips

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boehner-obama-is-acting-like-a-king/

 

http://thehill.com/video/senate/277299-rand-paul-obama-acting-like-a-king-or-a-monarch-on-guns

 

For the record, I think both assertions are extreme. But how quickly we forget...

Wow, it's almost as if there are a bunch of stupidly partisan people in this country. Crazy.

[Front Ranger]

Good thing you have managed to find the perfect balance. You need to write a manifesto to the rest of the country telling us all how you did it and what this new enlightened way of thinking fully entails.

 

Manifestos are way too fascist for me.

[Jesse]

Yeah, there were plenty of people on the right who were irrational about Obama.

 

But you honestly can't make an apples to apples comparison between that and the recent hysteria over Trump. It's really not close.

 

I wasn't trying to. That kneejerk reaction of yours is strong though. Great reflexes!

 

It's really interesting reading a few of those articles. Some of the descriptions of Obama "acting like a king" with some of his executive orders, etc could almost word for word be an article about Trump written in the last week.

[TT-SEA]

They built a wall! 

 

But do you seriously think Trump would prefer those kids were unprotected? Cuz he hatez all muslim peoples?

 

No... I am not making an assumption on Trump's intentions.   Just that his Muslim "ban" (used loosely here) directly resulted in all the people showing up to protect the event so he was the root cause of this uplifting story... just not the way he would like.

[Money]

What do you know. Another riot going on in Berkley right now.

 

Started a fire, throwing rocks at people and launching fireworks at a building protesting Milo..

[Jesse]

Wow, it's almost as if there are a bunch of stupidly partisan people in this country. Crazy.

 

Wow, sharing your ideas/observations in writing. How boring. And in 12-point font. Absolutely crazy. In English too. Totally trite. Just completely overdone. Wake me up when you come up with something fresh.

[Deweydog]

It's interesting that you can find so many examples of the right saying ridiculous things about Obama's executive overreach. Very similar to some of the things the left are saying about Trump recently, yet right-wingers and their apologists now act like it's completely unheard of and uncalled for.

 

And suddenly all of the protesters are now idiots, while in the case of the tea party and other anti-Obama movements they were freedom fighters.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/25/obama-immigration-and-10-words-in-the-constitution-that-mean-mr-president-dont-be-a-king/?utm_term=.359539d2b8c0

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4610057025001/?#sp=show-clips

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boehner-obama-is-acting-like-a-king/

 

http://thehill.com/video/senate/277299-rand-paul-obama-acting-like-a-king-or-a-monarch-on-guns

 

For the record, I think both assertions are extreme. But how quickly we forget...

Every opinion is in the absolute best interest of American values, traditions, morals, ideals and represents the clear vision of our founding fathers.

 

Every other opinion represents America going to hell in a hand basket.

[Front Ranger]

I wasn't trying to. That kneejerk reaction of yours is strong though. Great reflexes!

 

It's really interesting reading a few of those articles. Some of the descriptions of Obama "acting like a king" with some of his executive orders, etc could almost word for word be an article about Trump written in the last week.

 

You were making a direct comparison. "Both assertions are extreme." But there simply wasn't nearly the level of protests or general hysteria with Obama's opponents as there has been with Trump. 

 

And if you think the media has treated Obama in any way similar to how they've treated Trump, I've got a helluva bridge to sell you.

[Front Ranger]

No... I am not making an assumption on Trump's intentions.   Just that his Muslim "ban" (used loosely here) directly resulted in all the people showing up to protect the event so he was the root cause of this uplifting story... just not the way he would like.

 

Gotcha.

[Jesse]

You were making a direct comparison. "Both assertions are extreme." But there simply wasn't nearly the level of protests or general hysteria with Obama's opponents as there has been with Trump. 

 

And if you think the media has treated Obama in any way similar to how they've treated Trump, I've got a helluva bridge to sell you.

 

Saying both assertions are extreme does not mean that I think they are equally extreme. Can you handle staying away from the semantics based stuff for more than a few posts?

 

The rest is just you getting too carried away with what you think I think.

[Money]

Live feed of the Berkley protest

 

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/show/live-video-kpix-5-cbs-sf-bay-area-san-francisco-watch-news/

 

Tons of swearing. Yelling at cops, huge fire going on and they are all around it...

[Jesse]

Every opinion is in the absolute best interest of American values, traditions, morals, ideals and represents the clear vision of our founding fathers.

 

Every other opinion represents America going to hell in a hand basket.

 

Pretty much. Partisan blindness for the win!

[Front Ranger]

Saying both assertions are extreme does not mean that I think they are equally extreme. Can you handle staying away from the semantics based stuff for more than a few posts?

 

The rest is just you getting too carried away with what you think I think.

 

This is not semantics at all. You are talking about the similarities below, and comparing protesters. Like I said, yes there have been irrational opponents of both Obama and Trump. But again, the level of hysteria and the number of disruptive protests has been MUCH greater with Trump.

 

You were pointing out the similarities, and I'm pointing out the differences. Doesn't have to put us at odds with each other.

 

Very similar to some of the things the left are saying about Trump recently, yet right-wingers and their apologists now act like it's completely unheard of and uncalled for.

 

And suddenly all of the protesters are now idiots, while in the case of the tea party and other anti-Obama movements they were freedom fighters.

[Jesse]

Live feed of the Berkley protest

 

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/show/live-video-kpix-5-cbs-sf-bay-area-san-francisco-watch-news/

 

Tons of swearing. Yelling at cops, huge fire going on and they are all around it...

 

You are basically looking at a direct microcosm of the 51% of the country who voted for Hillary right there. Be sure to keep that in mind.

[Jesse]

This is not semantics at all. You are talking about the similarities below, and comparing protesters. Like I said, yes there have been irrational opponents of both Obama and Trump. But again, the level of hysteria and the number of disruptive protests has been MUCH greater with Trump. You were pointing out the similarities, and I'm pointing out the differences. Doesn't have to put us at odds with each other.

 

Very similar to some of the things the left are saying about Trump recently, yet right-wingers and their apologists now act like it's completely unheard of and uncalled for.

 

And suddenly all of the protesters are now idiots, while in the case of the tea party and other anti-Obama movements they were freedom fighters.

 

Simply pointing out human hypocrisy there. It's amazing how quickly and fluidly one side can switch from oppressed outsiders to executive power encouraging establishment darlings, and vice versa.

 

I will say that the disruptiveness of the left toward Trump has essentially been proportional to how disruptive and antagonistic he has been as a candidate and now President. Obama wasn't nearly as directly antagonistic to his dissenters and thus got a proportionately less antagonistic response.

 

So yeah, definitely not apples to apples. Trump is his own animal. Stands to reason that the opposition to him is too.

[TT-SEA]

What do you know. Another riot going on in Berkley right now.

 

Started a fire, throwing rocks at people and launching fireworks at a building protesting Milo..

 

 

Riot in Berkeley?  Is that the first time ever for them?   I don't anything happened there during the Vietnam War.   

 

Looks like a small group of anarchists.   I am going to lump every single person in the state of CA into a evil bucket and say they are all insane.   Looks like about 35 million people protesting on campus so it must be every resident of the state.  

[Money]

You are basically looking at a direct microcosm of the 51% of the country who voted for Hillary right there. Be sure to keep that in mind.

 

That kind of behavior only makes Trump stronger. I don't get why people don't see that...

[Front Ranger]

Simply pointing out human hypocrisy there. It's amazing how quickly and fluidly one side can switch from oppressed outsiders to executive power encouraging establishment darlings, and vice versa.

 

I will say that the disruptiveness of the left toward Trump has essentially been proportional to the how disruptive and antagonistic he has been as a candidate and now President. Obama wasn't nearly as directly antagonistic to his dissenters and thus got a proportionately less antagonistic response.

 

So yeah, definitely not apples to apples. Trump is his own animal. Stands to reason that the opposition to him is too.

 

I don't disagree with any of this.

 

I would just add, don't underestimate the media's role in some of this.

[TT-SEA]

You are basically looking at a direct microcosm of the 51% of the country who voted for Hillary right there. Be sure to keep that in mind.

 

 

Riots all over the place here... they just stormed down the street.    Every single person who did not vote for Trump (approximately 77% of the country) is now burning buildings and cars.   

 

Sad.   

 

But that is liberals for you!  

[Front Ranger]

Riots all over the place here... they just stormed down the street.    Every single person who did not vote for Trump (approximately 77% of the country) is now burning buildings and cars.   

 

Sad.   

 

But that is liberals for you!  

 

MORE HYPERBOLE!!!

[TT-SEA]

That kind of behavior only makes Trump stronger. I don't get why people don't see that...

 

 

I am sure 99% of the liberals in the country are also cringing over this crap at Berkeley... its anarchists.    

 

Remember that.

 

Call if for what it is... and don't blame half the country.

[Jesse]

MORE HYPERBOLE!!!

 

He is making fun of Jim's honest hyperbole and narrow mindedness. Why don't you post this as a response to Jim's next real post instead of a silly satirical one?

[Jesse]

I don't disagree with any of this.

 

I would just add, don't underestimate the media's role in some of this.

 

I hate most of the media.

 

I haven't owned a TV in over five years. I can't even remember the last time I watched cable news on an actual television.

[Front Ranger]

I am sure 99% of the liberals in the country are also cringing over this crap at Berkeley... its anarchists.    

 

Remember that.

 

Call if for what it is... and don't blame half the country.

 

Did he? All I saw was pointing out a riot, and then saying it only helps Trump.

 

He never even inferred it represented all Trump opponents.

[Money]

Please, PLEASE show me where I said this represents Clinton voters? All I am saying is it makes the left look bad and doesn't help your cause when you see this type of stuff.

 

I personally saw it in Wisconsin when all the people protested in Madison and acted like children after Act 10. Walker won by more votes during the recall voting. It doesn't help and makes your side look bad. 

[Front Ranger]

He is making fun of Jim's honest hyperbole and narrow mindedness. Why don't you post this as a response to Jim's next real post instead of a silly satirical one?

 

Definition of hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

 

Jim's statements are not actually hyperbole, they are earnest (and yes, sometimes misguided).

 

Actual hyperbole, when used in conversations like this, is not productive and really just a weak argumentative device. Similar to "straw men": https://unshacklingprogress.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/straw-man-and-hyperbole-real-reasons-why-we-cant-have-real-arguments/

[Tenochtitlan]

Please, PLEASE show me where I said this represents Clinton voters? All I am saying is it makes the left look bad and doesn't help your cause when you see this type of stuff.

 

I personally saw it in Wisconsin when all the people protested in Madison and acted like children after Act 10. Walker won by more votes during the recall voting. It doesn't help and makes your side look bad. 

 

I agree that it makes the left look bad. Unfortunately, the vast majority of liberals who don't want these protests to turn violent can't do much to stop the tiny number of anarchists who do.

 

Most recent protests have been peaceful. For example, I was at the women's march in Bellingham a week or two ago, and there were thousands of people there -- more than I'd ever seen in one place in Bellingham before. Everyone I saw was being calm, collected, peaceful, and respectful of everyone else there, including the police who were monitoring the protest and the one guy who was heckling us. That to me was an ideal protest.  

[Front Ranger]

Definition of hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

 

Jim's statements are not actually hyperbole, they are earnest (and yes, sometimes misguided).

 

Actual hyperbole, when used in conversations like this, is not productive and really just a weak argumentative device. Similar to "straw men": https://unshacklingprogress.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/straw-man-and-hyperbole-real-reasons-why-we-cant-have-real-arguments/

 

I love the first paragraph. Really sums up what's wrong with many of the debates in this thread.

 

When people argue one of the biggest reasons they can’t even begin to reason is because we reduce our opponents to madmen. Sure there are extremists, but honestly most people aren’t crazy. The average person isn’t unwilling to listen to reason. However how can we expect to ever have a real discussion if we build each other up into monsters?

[TT-SEA]

Definition of hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

 

Jim's statements are not actually hyperbole, they are earnest (and yes, sometimes misguided).

 

Actual hyperbole, when used in conversations like this, is not productive and really just a weak argumentative device. Similar to "straw men": https://unshacklingprogress.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/straw-man-and-hyperbole-real-reasons-why-we-cant-have-real-arguments/

Not hyperbole? Sometimes misguided??

 

Its much worse that he actually believes it. You give him credit for that? I think you agree more with his xeonphobic views than you let on here.

 

Hey... that klansman was being earnest in his views. The people mocking him were using hyperbole and much worse because they are not sincere.

 

That is craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap Jared.

 

And not saying Jim is a KKK member... just an example.

[BLI snowman]

Wow, sharing your ideas/observations in writing. How boring. And in 12-point font. Absolutely crazy. In English too. Totally trite. Just completely overdone. Wake me up when you come up with something fresh.

Aw, poor little guy.

[Jesse]

Definition of hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

 

Jim's statements are not actually hyperbole, they are earnest (and yes, sometimes misguided).

 

Actual hyperbole, when used in conversations like this, is not productive and really just a weak argumentative device. Similar to "straw men": https://unshacklingprogress.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/straw-man-and-hyperbole-real-reasons-why-we-cant-have-real-arguments/

 

I will argue that hyperbole is often taken literally, though, and can be used to mold public perception. I think hyperbole that can be mistaken for reality is a lot more dangerous than Tim's obviously satirical post.

 

We all knew the streets of suburbanite North Bend aren't being overrun by anarchist protesters.

[Jesse]

Aw, poor little guy.

 

Awe, poooor wittle baby Justin. Does he need a diapey change?

[Front Ranger]

Not hyperbole???

 

Sometimes misguided??

 

Its much worse that he actually believes it. You give him credit for that? I think you agree more with his xeonphobic views than you let on here.

 

Hey... that klansman was being earnest his views. The people mocking him were using hyperbole and much worse because they are not sincere.

 

That is craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap Jared.

 

And not saying Jim is a KKK member... just an example.

 

1. Did you read the actual definition of hyperbole? "Not meant to be taken literally..." Since Jim's statements are in earnest and meant to be taken literally, that means they are by definition, not hyperbole. That's not giving him credit for anything, that's just fact. If you're going to call something hyperbole, you should know what that means.

 

2. I have challenged Jim on his views on multiple occasions (when others haven't already dogpiled on him). If you're trying to say I'm xenophobic, you're wrong. Provide evidence if you're going to infer something like that.

[TT-SEA]

1. Did you read the actual definition of hyperbole? "Not meant to be taken literally..." Since Jim's statements are in earnest and meant to be taken literally, that means they are by definition, not hyperbole. That's not giving him credit for anything, that's just fact. If you're going to call something hyperbole, you should know what that means.

 

2. I have challenged Jim on his views on multiple occasions (when others haven't already dogpiled on him). If you're trying to say I'm xenophobic, you're wrong. Provide evidence if you're going to infer something like that.

 

 

BS.

 

You jump all over us... yet only occasionally and gently question Jim as if you need a little clarification on his xenophobia.  

[Front Ranger]

I will argue that hyperbole is often taken literally, though, and can be used to mold public perception. I think hyperbole that can be mistaken for reality is a lot more dangerous than Tim's obviously satirical post.

 

I'd really encourage you to read that article I posted about Straw Men and Hyperbole. The author makes so many great points that relate directly to why it's so hard to have real, open, honest political discussions on here.

 

99% of the time hyperbole is used in this thread, call it satirical or whatever you want, it functions the same as straw man arguments: distracting from actual facts and logic, designed purely to make the opposing side look like raging morons so you can tear them down.

[BLI snowman]

Awe, poooor wittle baby Justin. Does he need a diapey change?

Nope, got my Bernie Depends on and am good to go for the night.

[Front Ranger]

BS.

 

You jump all over us... yet only occasionally and gently question Jim as if you need a little clarification on his xenophobia.  

 

The definition of hyperbole is not BS. That is fact.

 

I definitely don't agree with Jim on some things, but at least he doesn't create straw man arguments constantly. Sorry I don't lay into him as much as you'd like, as much as you do. 

[Jesse]

Nope, got my Bernie Depends on and am good to go for the night.

 

Trump brand steaks also make great adult diapers I hear. Very absorbant.

[TT-SEA]

I'd really encourage you to read that article I posted about Straw Men and Hyperbole. The author makes so many great points that relate directly to why it's so hard to have real, open, honest political discussions on here.

 

99% of the time hyperbole is used in this thread, call it satirical or whatever you want, it functions the same as straw man arguments: distracting from actual facts and logic, designed purely to make the opposing side look like raging morons so you can tear them down.

 

Jim pops in here and posts about small groups of liberals or even just individuals doing something that he hates... and then practically pees himself in excitement over his perception that everyone who is not in the far-right is depressed and miserable and/or tearing apart the country.   Hyperbole?  Delusional?   Desperately wanting everyone else to be miserable?