2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Money]

Rubio is insanely pro-life and is a war-hawk. Can you really vote for that? In fact, outside the abortion issue, I don't think Rubio differs much from Hillary. They're both pro-free trade, both similar w/ their tax proposals, and their foreign policies are the exact same except for Cuba. Arguably, Rubio could have been prone to bribes from special interest groups as well, given what we know about his background.

 

Goes to show how similar mainstream republicans are to mainstream democrats. They're almost the same party.

 

I thought Rubio had the best chance to beat Hillary. I didn't think there was any chance anyone else would.

[Guest Sounder]

pro-free trade

You mean that thing that 95% of economists agree is an overwhelming positive and is absolutely critical for the health of our modern economy?

 

Corrupt establishment shills!!!!!

[Phil]

I thought Rubio had the best chance to beat Hillary. I didn't think there was any chance anyone else would.

Would it even matter? They're basically the same, only difference being party label.

 

Research their policy proposals. They're so similar it's scary.

[Phil]

You mean that thing that 95% of economists agree is an overwhelming positive and is absolutely critical for the health of our modern economy?

 

Corrupt establishment shills!!!!!

It's MUCH more complicated than that. International trade should be regulated in a similar manner to which we regulate domestic fiscal and economic policy.

 

Corporate Democrats are hypocrites in that they promote a bounded deregulation of international trade, which hurts workers and benefits corporations in the same manner that a deregulation of domestic policy would. At least Republicans openly admit they're going to screw you over.

[Jesse]

It's MUCH more complicated than that. International trade should be regulated in a similar manner to which we regulate domestic fiscal and economic policy.

 

Corporate Democrats are hypocrites in that they promote a bounded deregulation of international trade, which hurts workers and benefits corporations in the same manner that a deregulation of domestic policy would. At least Republicans openly admit they're going to screw you over.

I wouldn't go that far. I would say the establishment of both parties are equally deceitful.

 

I agree with the rest of this overall, though.

[Jesse]

If you genuinely believe that Hillary can even remotely be compared to Trump, then you are not grounded in reality.

Personality wise it's apples and oranges. Trump is by far the more offensive and volatile. As far as candidates for each respective party, though, they were equally bad choices.

 

I'm honestly pretty surprised you are defending Hillary here. You can be pretty insufferable, but I always had you pegged as being a little more savvy.

[Phil]

I wouldn't go that far. I would say there establishments of both parties are equally deceitful.

 

I agree with the rest of this overall, though.

Maybe I'm wrong and/or overly pessimistic, but from what I have researched about trade policy over the last three presidential administrations, when it comes to international trade, I don't see much difference between the two parties. I also think it's undeniable that certain aspects of these trade policies have hurt American workers in certain sectors, and have allowed big corporations to make huge profits overseas, while the nature of our tax code has prevented them from bringing that money back into the United States.

 

I'm not against trade, and I'm not isolationist, but I think we need to re-think our trade policies going forward.

[Phil]

This isn't 100% accurate, but it's accurate enough. We're currently bombing seven different countries, and wasting a ridiculous amount of money on overseas wars.

 

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww243/phillywillie/Mobile%20Uploads/B61A3309-11C3-496D-8EC4-3D4EED4C498E_zpshpxquuq0.png

[Guest happ]

Money, on 20 Feb 2017 - 1:01 PM, said:

I thought Rubio had the best chance to beat Hillary. I didn't think there was any chance anyone else would.

 

Rubio would have been a Godsend compared to Trump. Governor Kasich spoke out in favor of the press yesterday and even Fox News feels awkward being praised by Trump.  People in England are marching/ asking government to not extend a state visit to the American president. Our greatest ally may need to tone down Trumps London visit to exclude a carriage parade and visit with the Queen in case of a major demonstration.    

[Jesse]

Maybe I'm wrong and/or overly pessimistic, but from what I have researched about trade policy over the last three presidential administrations, when it comes to international trade, I don't see much difference between the two parties. I also think it's undeniable that certain aspects of these trade policies have hurt American workers in certain sectors, and have allowed big corporations to make huge profits overseas, while the nature of our tax code has prevented them from bringing that money back into the United States.

 

I'm not against trade, and I'm not isolationist, but I think we need to re-think our trade policies going forward.

Yeah, like I said, I agree with most of this. The only thing I took up issue with was you claim that the GOP is somehow more honest with their intentions.

[Phil]

Even Fox News is taking swings at Trump. If that doesn't send a message, I don't know what does.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=POQNyTPMi_w

[Guest Sounder]

Personality wise it's apples and oranges. Trump is by far the more offensive and volatile. As far as candidates for each respective party, though, they were equally bad choices.

 

I'm honestly pretty surprised you are defending Hillary here. You can be pretty insufferable, but I always had you pegged as being a little more savvy.

Seriously? I've never met anyone even remotely intelligent who supports Bernie while hating Hillary. Pretty amusing that you've clearly soaked up decades of Republican smears like a sponge and have the gall to mock those who see through it.

 

In an effort to foster reasonable discussion: Can you tell me some specific things you do not like about Hillary? I mean be specific, don't just say "she's corrupt/just as bad as Trump/a Wall Street shill!!!"

[TT-SEA]

Even Fox News is taking swings at Trump. If that doesn't send a message, I don't know what does.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=POQNyTPMi_w

 

 

Chris Wallace went after him... love it.   Asking the direct questions and cutting through BS.    This is an example of why I have been generally impressed with FOX lately.

 

Hannity is the exception.   He is just horrible.   Like Trump has his hand up his a*s and operating him like a puppet.    Just painfully biased with no attempt to be objective.  Hannity is truly the ultimate in fake news.   And Limbaugh is the same.

[Deweydog]

Chris Wallace went after him... love it. Asking the direct questions and cutting through BS. This is an example of why I have been generally impressed with FOX lately.

 

Hannity is the exception. He is just horrible. Like Trump has his hand up his a*s and operating him like a puppet. Just painfully biased with no attempt to be objective. Hannity is truly the ultimate in fake news. And Limbaugh is the same.

Well for Hannity's sake at least Trump's hands are unusually small.

[Front Ranger]

Hillary was the most qualified candidate to ever run for president. She has dedicated her life to public service and is a resilient to an extremely admirable degree.

 

The way she has been smeared by the right for decades is an absolute joke. Smoke has been thrown at her for years with Republicans screaming "fire!!!" but still coming up with nothing to show for it. Unfortunately non-scandal after non-scandal finally took their toll as morons like you started to just believe "it's common knowledge" that she's corrupt/evil/in Wall Street's pocket/whatever.

 

Even more infuriating was watching dumba** Bernie Bots run with those baseless smears and cannibalize their own party to the point that you had Trump et al thanking Bernie for "softening her up". What a crock of s**t.

 

I'd love to see you and Trump in anger management together.

[Guest Sounder]

I'd love to see you and Trump in anger management together.

Forgive me for being a little annoyed that my country is being run into the ground by an orange Russian puppet installed into office thanks to Democrats cannibalizing their own candidate because "her emails!!!"

[Front Ranger]

This whole thing about mistrusting the media is essentially a Republican hang up going back decades. 

 

You're correct that Republicans/conservatives in general have been more distrustful of the media for a long time. But that wasn't completely unfounded by any means - the media has been much more liberal in their views, and in fact more liberal than the general public overall, for quite a while. Bias in reporting naturally follows, to some extent or another. The reason FOX news became so huge, so fast was because there was a lot of demand for a news source that didn't veer towards a liberal slant, like most the others did.

 

But what's much more disconcerting to people across the political spectrum now is that in the information age, what has come to matter most is who gets the scoop first, and with social media tightening that window even further, that need to be first sometimes takes priority over journalistic integrity. Back when newspapers were the main source of news, there was more time for vetting stories and gathering sources. Now everyone is so rushed to get the latest breaking news up online, along with the latest "takes" on the news. 

 

As a consequence, a "bad" story may go viral before it's proven to be faulty, and by then the damage is often done. The real danger comes when certain elements start leaking bad stories, for their own purposes, political or otherwise. The media can be complicit or even aid in this.

[Front Ranger]

Forgive me for being a little annoyed that my country is being run into the ground by an orange Russian puppet installed into office thanks to Democrats cannibalizing their own candidate because "her emails!!!"

 

Hillary was a weak candidate for a lot of reasons you're not acknowledging, though. Especially at a time when large segments of the population desperately wanted a non-establishment candidate.

[Phil]

Forgive me for being a little annoyed that my country is being run into the ground by an orange Russian puppet installed into office thanks to Democrats cannibalizing their own candidate because "her emails!!!"

That's not why she lost.

[Front Ranger]

Chris Wallace went after him... love it.   Asking the direct questions and cutting through BS.    This is an example of why I have been generally impressed with FOX lately.

 

Hannity is the exception.   He is just horrible.   Like Trump has his hand up his a*s and operating him like a puppet.    Just painfully biased with no attempt to be objective.  Hannity is truly the ultimate in fake news.   And Limbaugh is the same.

 

I wouldn't call that segment especially fair or objective, though. Priebus made the legitimate point that the Trump administration isn't saying ALL media is "fake news", but rather those that are publishing dishonest or unsubstantiated stories. And then he gave a couple of examples, which Chris Wallace just brushed aside.

 

And then there was this:

 

 

Misleading headline, since Trump did not actually call the press "the enemy of the American people".

[Phil]

Hillary lost for a number of reasons.

 

- For one, she ran a campaign rooted in identity politics, which blatantly contradicted her "stronger together" slogan. Identity politics divides the electorate, and pits people/groups against one another over superficial differences that people are born with, through no fault of their own. It was easy to see the hypocrisy there, and it alienated much of the electorate.

 

- She's also a corrupt, corporatist war hawk with a horrific track record overseas. She literally left nothing but death and destruction in her wake. Her track record as Secretary of State is one of momumental failure.

 

I'm sure there are more reasons, but this is the gist of it.

[Phil]

Seriously? I've never met anyone even remotely intelligent who supports Bernie while hating Hillary. Pretty amusing that you've clearly soaked up decades of Republican smears like a sponge and have the gall to mock those who see through it.

 

In an effort to foster reasonable discussion: Can you tell me some specific things you do not like about Hillary? I mean be specific, don't just say "she's corrupt/just as bad as Trump/a Wall Street shill!!!"

She's basically a Republican, dude. Look at her voting record while in the senate. It's horrific. Heck, she was anti-LGBT until what, five years ago?

 

In terms of economic policy, she's actually farther to the right than Trump is.

[Front Ranger]

Hannity is the exception.   He is just horrible.   Like Trump has his hand up his a*s and operating him like a puppet.    Just painfully biased with no attempt to be objective.  Hannity is truly the ultimate in fake news.   And Limbaugh is the same.

 

I'm not a Limbaugh fan, but I think if you make accusations like this you need to back it up. You know Jim loves Limbaugh...but what false or misleading stories has Limbaugh ran with? Because that is what "fake news" means in this context.

[TT-SEA]

Remember that Hillary got 66 million votes and Trump got 63 million.

 

You people talk as if she lost the popular vote by a landslide.

 

There was a significant number of voters who were not crazy about either candidate.  All I heard in interviews with voters (and in causal conversation with people) was the term 'lesser of two evils'.  I am sure the flood of Wiki-Leaks e-mails and the FBI announcement just 11 days before the election pushed a significant number of voters riding the fence away from Hillary just out of annoyance.   Had those things not happened then she would very likely be president as the lesser of two evils.   She almost pulled it off anyways.  

 

I always think about this complete flip in the final narrative with football games.   A team can play a great game and then lose in the last second and then get buried by people ripping them on sports talk radio, but if one or two plays went differently they would be praising them for a great game and win.

 

The reality of both outcomes is much closer than people say.   

[TT-SEA]

I'm not a Limbaugh fan, but I think if you make accusations like this you need to back it up. You know Jim loves Limbaugh...but what false or misleading stories has Limbaugh ran with? Because that is what "fake news" means in this context.

 

I have listened to Limbaugh for years... first because I was actually a fan back the 90s and then out of curiosity for the last 15 years.    Fake news is not the correct term.   He is just completely one-sided and painfully biased and angry.   Jim sounds exactly like him.

[Phil]

Remember that Hillary got 66 million votes and Trump got 63 million.

 

You people talk as if she lost the popular vote by a landslide.

 

There was a significant number of voters who were not crazy about either candidate. All I heard in interviews with voters (and in causal conversation with people) was the term 'lesser of two evils'. I am sure the flood of Wiki-Leaks e-mails and the FBI announcement just 11 days before the election pushed a significant number of voters riding the fence away from Hillary just out of annoyance. Had those things not happened... then she would be president as lesser of two evils. She almost pulled it off anyways.

 

I always think about this complete flip in the final narrative with football games. A team can play a great game and then lose in the last second and then get buried by people ripping them on sports talk radio but if one or two plays went differently they would be praising them for a great game and win.

 

The reality of both outcomes is much closer than people say.

She would have lost regardless. Comey came back and cleared her of any wrongdoing, which ran for several new cycles. Also, those campaign emails only confirmed what people already knew about her, considering the earlier email issues she had to begin with, all of which was her own doing.

 

Not to mention, that leaked Hollywood access tape did legitimate damage to Trump. They both had stuff leaked.

[Front Ranger]

Remember that Hillary got 66 million votes and Trump got 63 million.

 

You people talk as if she lost the popular vote by a landslide.

 

There was a significant number of voters who were not crazy about either candidate.  All I heard in interviews with voters (and in causal conversation with people) was the term 'lesser of two evils'.  I am sure the flood of Wiki-Leaks e-mails and the FBI announcement just 11 days before the election pushed a significant number of voters riding the fence away from Hillary just out of annoyance.   Had those things not happened then she would very likely be president as the lesser of two evils.   She almost pulled it off anyways.  

 

I always think about this complete flip in the final narrative with football games.   A team can play a great game and then lose in the last second and then get buried by people ripping them on sports talk radio, but if one or two plays went differently they would be praising them for a great game and win.

 

The reality of both outcomes is much closer than people say.   

 

Bravo. One of your best posts in awhile. Great analogy.

 

Still, the fact that she lost to Trump no matter how close it was does prove that she was an extremely uninspiring candidate for most people. 

[TT-SEA]

Bravo. One of your best posts in awhile. Great analogy.

 

Still, the fact that she lost to Trump no matter how close it was does prove that she was an extremely uninspiring candidate for most people. 

 

No doubt.

 

It would be like the Patriots blowing a game to the Browns because of their own stupid mistakes.   The Patriots should win that game even with mistakes.  

[Front Ranger]

I have listened to Limbaugh for years... first because I was actually a fan back the 90s and then out of curiosity for the last 15 years.    Fake news is not the correct term.   He is just completely one-sided and painfully biased and angry.   Jim sounds exactly like him.

 

One could say the same about Chris Wallace in that Priebus interview. And that Fox News headline during the interview was downright misleading. Not exactly fair and balanced.

[TT-SEA]

She would have lost regardless. Comey came back and cleared her of any wrongdoing, which ran for several new cycles. Also, those campaign emails only confirmed what people already knew about her, considering the earlier email issues she had to begin with, all of which was her own doing.

 

Not to mention, that leaked Hollywood access tape did legitimate damage to Trump. They both had stuff leaked.

 

I am not sure of the actual number... but I think there were about 40 million votes cast before Comey said never mind.

[snow_wizard]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but Milo is a D**n idiot. He had everything going for him and he made the dumbest comments about pedophilia. I have yet to see a good explanation by him, but by my estimation he might have thrown everything he had out the window. I would like to think he might have been trying to do what Rush Limbaugh calls illustrating absurdity by being absurd, but he totally missed the mark.

[snow_wizard]

I have listened to Limbaugh for years... first because I was actually a fan back the 90s and then out of curiosity for the last 15 years.    Fake news is not the correct term.   He is just completely one-sided and painfully biased and angry.   Jim sounds exactly like him.

Rush is as cool as cucumber compared to Michael Savage. Their anger comes from watching the duplicitous behavior of the press toward democrats vs republicans, and from the outrageous lies coming from politicians like UpChuck Schumer.

[Phil]

I am not sure of the actual number... but I think there were about 40 million votes cast before Comey said never mind.

There's no evidence in the subsequent polling to suggest that Comey changed the outcome of the race. Late deciders broke almost evenly, and they were a fraction of the electorate. The early voters had their minds made up well beforehand, and those that didn't also split almost evenly. Unless you believe the numbers are wrong, Hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate, period.

 

Imagine if she'd run against someone like Rubio. She would have been absolutely destroyed. Rubio probably would have won over 400 electoral votes.

[TT-SEA]

Rush is as cool as cucumber compared to Michael Savage. Their anger comes from watching the duplicitous behavior of the press toward democrats vs republicans, and from the outrageous lies coming from politicians like UpChuck Schumer.

 

Their anger comes from getting ratings and whipping people into a frenzy.   

 

13 million listeners in a country of 350 million people.   And that number has been falling for several years.   They are not converting liberals at some amazing rate.   And Limbaugh has lost people like me because he is so dishonestly one-sided.   I can't listen to Limbaugh or Hannity without laughing.   Its intellectually dishonest and over-dramatized.    All the things you claim about the left.       

[snow_wizard]

Forgive me for being a little annoyed that my country is being run into the ground by an orange Russian puppet installed into office thanks to Democrats cannibalizing their own candidate because "her emails!!!"

Good lord.

[Front Ranger]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but Milo is a D**n idiot. He had everything going for him and he made the dumbest comments about pedophilia. I have yet to see a good explanation by him, but by my estimation he might have thrown everything he had out the window. I would like to think he might have been trying to do what Rush Limbaugh calls illustrating absurdity by being absurd, but he totally missed the mark.

 

Flamboyant!

[snow_wizard]

Rubio is insanely pro-life/anti-choice and is a war-hawk. Can you really vote for that? In fact, outside the abortion issue, I don't think Rubio differs much from Hillary. They're both promote pro-free trade, anti-union policies, promote very similar tax policies, and their foreign policies are the exact same except for Cuba.

 

Arguably, Rubio could have been prone to bribes from special interest groups as well, given what we know about his financial background. Goes to show how similar mainstream republicans are to mainstream democrats. They're almost the same party.

Rubio is terrible IMO.

[snow_wizard]

Flamboyant!

I was just starting to understand him. He really blew it on this one. He lost his book deal, lost his invitation to speak at CPAC, and may lose his job at Breitbart over it.

[snow_wizard]

If you genuinely believe that Hillary can even remotely be compared to Trump, then you are not grounded in reality.

Wouldn't it be helpful to see what he accomplishes first? It's really lame to judge a President before he has had time to do anything.

[Guest Sounder]

Bravo. One of your best posts in awhile. Great analogy.

 

Still, the fact that she lost to Trump no matter how close it was does prove that she was an extremely uninspiring candidate for most people. 

I certainly don't dispute that she was an uninspiring candidate for many. I just find the fact that so many found her to be uninspiring quite depressing.