Polite Politics

[Rubus Leucodermis]

25 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Now reports that Israeli infants were beheaded. This is what some on the left in our country is celebrating today (There are countless examples of American leftists celebrating or praising Hamas.). We must speak out against this evil. 

Hamas is a right-wing, religious, traditionalist organization. Cheers!

[SilverFallsAndrew]

21 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Hamas is a right-wing, religious, traditionalist organization. Cheers!

While that may be true it is an appalling thing to mock. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

Quite simple. Jews and Christians claim to be God's chosen people and that does not go well with the left's egalitarian ideals. As for Muslims, the enemy of their enemy is their friend. 

[roadtonowhere08]

23 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Quite simple. Jews and Christians claim to be God's chosen people and that does not go well with the left's egalitarian ideals. As for Muslims, the enemy of their enemy is their friend. 

Kind of an arrogant claim, doncha think?  Such a claim could never be used to one's advantage. /s

[SilverFallsAndrew]

We are seeing what happens when those who would undermine western civilization reach their logical end.

[Reg]

5 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

So the problem I have with this and your other posts (I never reported anyone on this topic) is that you only seem to call out Israel's bad acting.  In fact, I don't know if you called out what Hamas recently did on here.  You're only calling out Israel's reaction to what Hamas did.

Just from reading what you write/post on this particular topic, it's not a great look.

To focus on and call out "Israel's reaction" to the Hamas attacks is to frame Israel as the victim (and conveniently fit perfectly into the US State Department's agenda) - and, by no stretch of the imagination, is Israel a victim. This didn't all just begin on Saturday because "Palestinians just hate the Jews and want to exterminate them", there is over 70 years of framework preceding the current situation, and ages of British colonialism even before that which indirectly led to this entire scenario.

You have apartheid, as was done previously in South Africa but on an even greater scale and brutality. The "West", aligned with Israel, prefers to have Palestinians living under apartheid just die quietly, outside of the view of the cameras, with little to no resistance. Atrocities are routinely committed by the oppressor, even after the "Never Again" of WWII - which apparently only meant "Never Again to us, but it's okay if we do it to others". Western nations stay completely silent every time, only occasionally sounding off with the routine "We stand with Israel" when tensions become high enough and geopolitical ambitions are shuffled around. Palestinians, whom are also human beings with rights (something the US government still officially refuses to acknowledge to this day) are not all going to perish quietly when constantly pushed to the brink and deprived of their humanity - some of these Palestinians may also die, but not without taking innocents with them. We Americans would do the same, as would any group of humans anywhere around the world when subjugated and abandoned this way, especially for an excessively long period of time.

Now, imagine the sheer audacity and complacency of Israel, to believe that its own brutally oppressive existence can be perfectly normal, that you can hold festivals just outside of the open-air concentration camps you keep the oppressed locked in, and just live happy lives like other countries like nothing is happening. The sheer audacity of such thinking. Israel will never know a normal, peaceful existence as long as its existence is founded upon the brutal oppression of millions within its own borders, bankrolled by a conveniently-silent hegemonic government, thousands of miles away. The United States, its obedient puppet governments across western Europe, and its favorite apartheid lapdog in the Middle East - which is really a neocolonial nuclear-armed settler project masquerading as a democracy, Israel - all prefer Palestinians to die under apartheid in agony, as long as it is done quietly.

Apartheid begets violence. Israel's violent existence will never be normal, and that violence will inevitably come back to it, claiming innocents. Lesson: If you don't want to bring out the extremes of humanity and have that inevitable horror come back to you, don't do apartheid. In a more easily-understandable way of saying, remember how the United States since the end of WWII has routinely exported a culture of violence across the globe - and then Americans are flabbergasted when that very same violence manifests itself domestically at home (mainly in the form of gun violence and mental illness). Remember, the United States officially had Nelson Mandela listed as a terrorist until 2008.

This isn't a "both sides" issue. Israel is not the victim. Only American propaganda could work so well as to convince millions of its own citizens (as well as those of Washington's vassal states in Europe and beyond) that the oppressor, the genocider, is actually the one being genocided while the oppressed are the genociders. This kind of Twitter-style pearl-clutching "but you have to condemn Hamas" rhetoric doesn't work in this argument (BBC tried the same thing on Jeremy Corbyn just days ago) - I'm not concerned with superficial optics or having a "bad look". Why is it that when oppressed people fight back against their oppressors, it is only viewed as terrorism when Palestinians do it? Didn't the collective West just spend a year-and-a-half lecturing us about how good it was that Ukraine was fighting back against a Russian invasion, and that we need to supply them with all of our weapons and finances? Could it possibly be that the West, led by Washington in particular, is only looking after its own hegemonic interests, will spend countless lives of foreigners (and eventually America's own poorer citizens) to achieve capital gains and enhance their own wealth and influence to that end? If you're inconvenient and an obstacle to this agenda, you are now no longer a "freedom fighter' but now a "terrorist"...

A tl;dr summary (put far more eloquently than I could) in a three minute video:

 

[Reg]

2 hours ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

Now reports that Israeli infants were beheaded. This is what some on the left in our country is celebrating today (There are countless examples of American leftists celebrating or praising Hamas.). We must speak out against this evil. 

Debunked. Israeli state media reporter backtracked on it within hours, IDF spox admitted that they had no confirmation that this had occurred and no images have surfaced. Original source of the story was "some soldiers told me it happened".

Wartime propaganda 101. "Saddam's troops throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwait"; "Saddam has WMDs"; "Gaddafi issued viagra to his troops to rape women"; "Ghost of Kiev", etc. all over again. Western media picks up on it without verification and spreads it en masse without accountability, increased public support for war successfully manufactured overnight.

[roadtonowhere08]

In more positive news today:

George Santos charged with defrauding campaign donors

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67073935

The justice department filed 23 charges against the Republican - including wire fraud and identity theft.

...

The charges build on 13 counts the New York congressman pleaded not guilty to in May. He was accused of laundering campaign funds to pay for his personal expenses and illegally claiming unemployment benefits while he was employed.

[Anti Marine Layer]

Reg is a flat out communist and the mainstream media is becoming a modern day Pravda.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

2 hours ago, Reg said:

To focus on and call out "Israel's reaction" to the Hamas attacks is to frame Israel as the victim (and conveniently fit perfectly into the US State Department's agenda) - and, by no stretch of the imagination, is Israel a victim. This didn't all just begin on Saturday because "Palestinians just hate the Jews and want to exterminate them", there is over 70 years of framework preceding the current situation, and ages of British colonialism even before that which indirectly led to this entire scenario.

You have apartheid, as was done previously in South Africa but on an even greater scale and brutality. The "West", aligned with Israel, prefers to have Palestinians living under apartheid just die quietly, outside of the view of the cameras, with little to no resistance. Atrocities are routinely committed by the oppressor, even after the "Never Again" of WWII - which apparently only meant "Never Again to us, but it's okay if we do it to others". Western nations stay completely silent every time, only occasionally sounding off with the routine "We stand with Israel" when tensions become high enough and geopolitical ambitions are shuffled around. Palestinians, whom are also human beings with rights (something the US government still officially refuses to acknowledge to this day) are not all going to perish quietly when constantly pushed to the brink and deprived of their humanity - some of these Palestinians may also die, but not without taking innocents with them. We Americans would do the same, as would any group of humans anywhere around the world when subjugated and abandoned this way, especially for an excessively long period of time.

Now, imagine the sheer audacity and complacency of Israel, to believe that its own brutally oppressive existence can be perfectly normal, that you can hold festivals just outside of the open-air concentration camps you keep the oppressed locked in, and just live happy lives like other countries like nothing is happening. The sheer audacity of such thinking. Israel will never know a normal, peaceful existence as long as its existence is founded upon the brutal oppression of millions within its own borders, bankrolled by a conveniently-silent hegemonic government, thousands of miles away. The United States, its obedient puppet governments across western Europe, and its favorite apartheid lapdog in the Middle East - which is really a neocolonial nuclear-armed settler project masquerading as a democracy, Israel - all prefer Palestinians to die under apartheid in agony, as long as it is done quietly.

Apartheid begets violence. Israel's violent existence will never be normal, and that violence will inevitably come back to it, claiming innocents. Lesson: If you don't want to bring out the extremes of humanity and have that inevitable horror come back to you, don't do apartheid. In a more easily-understandable way of saying, remember how the United States since the end of WWII has routinely exported a culture of violence across the globe - and then Americans are flabbergasted when that very same violence manifests itself domestically at home (mainly in the form of gun violence and mental illness). Remember, the United States officially had Nelson Mandela listed as a terrorist until 2008.

This isn't a "both sides" issue. Israel is not the victim. Only American propaganda could work so well as to convince millions of its own citizens (as well as those of Washington's vassal states in Europe and beyond) that the oppressor, the genocider, is actually the one being genocided while the oppressed are the genociders. This kind of Twitter-style pearl-clutching "but you have to condemn Hamas" rhetoric doesn't work in this argument (BBC tried the same thing on Jeremy Corbyn just days ago) - I'm not concerned with superficial optics or having a "bad look". Why is it that when oppressed people fight back against their oppressors, it is only viewed as terrorism when Palestinians do it? Didn't the collective West just spend a year-and-a-half lecturing us about how good it was that Ukraine was fighting back against a Russian invasion, and that we need to supply them with all of our weapons and finances? Could it possibly be that the West, led by Washington in particular, is only looking after its own hegemonic interests, will spend countless lives of foreigners (and eventually America's own poorer citizens) to achieve capital gains and enhance their own wealth and influence to that end? If you're inconvenient and an obstacle to this agenda, you are now no longer a "freedom fighter' but now a "terrorist"...

A tl;dr summary (put far more eloquently than I could) in a three minute video:

 

Please… it is increasingly clear that the early rumors of Hamas going house to house and kidnapping people or summarily executing them were in fact true (and not just isolated incidents, but happened in multiple towns). Nothing can excuse this sort of conduct. Ever.

And I say this as someone who has been harshly critical of the Israeli state at times. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

39 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Reg is a flat out communist and the mainstream media is becoming a modern day Pravda.

Please, get out of whatever echo chamber(s) you are in. This is just plain silly.

I have been reading various mainstream media accounts of what happened in Israel. Literally none of them are whitewashing what happened. Reg is just being Reg. He is an anonymous crank posting in the off-topic section of a somewhat obscure weather forum. How anyone can think his posts are representative of the mainstream media is beyond me.

[roadtonowhere08]

Your daily dose of irony:

Putin calls to "minimize or reduce to zero" civilian casualties in expanding conflict

From CNN’s Anna Chernova & Jen Deaton

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday urged "both" sides in the fighting between Israel and Hamas to "minimize or reduce to zero" civilian casualties.

Speaking from Moscow on the longstanding Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Putin suggested the lack of a two-state solution has led to the current "explosion of violence," saying, "Israel, as we know, was created, but Palestine as an independent sovereign state was never created, it did not happen."

The Russian president voiced his concern at the growing violence and urged efforts to minimize civilian casualties.

“We understand that the bitterness on both sides is very great, but no matter what the level of bitterness on both sides is, we still need to strive to minimize or reduce to zero losses among the civilian population, among women, children and the elderly,” Putin said.
“If men decided to fight among themselves, let them fight among themselves. Leave children and women alone,” he added. 

Some context: Putin’s comments come as he continues a ruthless war campaign against Ukraine and is being investigated by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity for among other things, allegations of targeting civilians.

Putin was speaking at a plenary session of the international forum "Russian Energy Week" in Moscow, which he attended with Prime Minister of the Republic of Iraq Mohammed al-Sudani, who is on an official visit to Russia.

[roadtonowhere08]

Perhaps Hamas acted independently of Iran?  The plot thickens:

Initial US intel casts doubt on direct Iran involvement in Hamas terror attack

From CNN's Zachary Cohen, Katie Bo Lillis, Natasha Bertrand and Jeremy Herb

 

Rockets are fired toward Israel from the Gaza Strip, on October 7. Fatima Shbair/AP

 

The United States has collected specific intelligence that casts doubt on the idea that Iran was directly involved in the planning, resourcing or approving of Saturday’s bloody attack on Israel by Hamas, according to several sources familiar with the intelligence. 

Still, the sources stressed that intelligence community is not ready to reach a full conclusion as they continue to look for evidence of Iranian involvement in the attack which caught both Israel and the United States by surprise. Additionally, since the attack, government officials have all pointed to Iran’s significant support for Hamas, including weapons and financing, that would have helped them even if not in a direct way.

The sources did not disclose any details about the nature of the intelligence, which one source briefed on the information said is extremely sensitive. 

But the sources said that this piece of intelligence has led US analysts to lean towards an initial assessment that the government of Iran did not play a direct role in the attack.

Lawmakers on Capitol Hill have been briefed on the information and the early skepticism amongst intelligence analysts about Iranian involvement. 

For days, senior US officials have said publicly that they have no indication that Iran was directly involved in the attack, even as they have condemned Tehran as broadly “complicit” in the attack because its historic support for Hamas. 

“We’re looking to acquire further intelligence,” national security advisor Jake Sullivan told reporters at the White House. “But as I stand here today, while Iran plays this broad role – sustained, deep and dark role in providing all of this support and capabilities to Hamas – in terms of this particular gruesome attack on October 7, we don’t currently have that information.”

Iran has for years been Hamas’ chief benefactor, providing it with tens of millions of dollars, weapons and components smuggled into Gaza, as well as broad technical and ideological support.

But Hamas maintains a degree of independence from the Iranian regime. Tehran doesn’t have advisers on the ground in blockaded Gaza, according to former security officials and other regional analysts, and it doesn’t command the group’s activities.

[Anti Marine Layer]

10 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Please, get out of whatever echo chamber(s) you are in. This is just plain silly.

I have been reading various mainstream media accounts of what happened in Israel. Literally none of them are whitewashing what happened. Reg is just being Reg. He is an anonymous crank posting in the off-topic section of a somewhat obscure weather forum. How anyone can think his posts are representative of the mainstream media is beyond me.

He's posted in approval of communism a few times here, responded with an "excited" reaction to the "Are you a communist?" poster I took a picture of at UCI, posts Second Thought videos on our Discord site, and is right in line with The Squad on his views of Israel and Palestine.

[Reg]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Perhaps Hamas acted independently of Iran?  The plot thickens:

Initial US intel casts doubt on direct Iran involvement in Hamas terror attack

From CNN's Zachary Cohen, Katie Bo Lillis, Natasha Bertrand and Jeremy Herb

 

Rockets are fired toward Israel from the Gaza Strip, on October 7. Fatima Shbair/AP

 

The United States has collected specific intelligence that casts doubt on the idea that Iran was directly involved in the planning, resourcing or approving of Saturday’s bloody attack on Israel by Hamas, according to several sources familiar with the intelligence. 

Still, the sources stressed that intelligence community is not ready to reach a full conclusion as they continue to look for evidence of Iranian involvement in the attack which caught both Israel and the United States by surprise. Additionally, since the attack, government officials have all pointed to Iran’s significant support for Hamas, including weapons and financing, that would have helped them even if not in a direct way.

The sources did not disclose any details about the nature of the intelligence, which one source briefed on the information said is extremely sensitive. 

But the sources said that this piece of intelligence has led US analysts to lean towards an initial assessment that the government of Iran did not play a direct role in the attack.

Lawmakers on Capitol Hill have been briefed on the information and the early skepticism amongst intelligence analysts about Iranian involvement. 

For days, senior US officials have said publicly that they have no indication that Iran was directly involved in the attack, even as they have condemned Tehran as broadly “complicit” in the attack because its historic support for Hamas. 

“We’re looking to acquire further intelligence,” national security advisor Jake Sullivan told reporters at the White House. “But as I stand here today, while Iran plays this broad role – sustained, deep and dark role in providing all of this support and capabilities to Hamas – in terms of this particular gruesome attack on October 7, we don’t currently have that information.”

Iran has for years been Hamas’ chief benefactor, providing it with tens of millions of dollars, weapons and components smuggled into Gaza, as well as broad technical and ideological support.

But Hamas maintains a degree of independence from the Iranian regime. Tehran doesn’t have advisers on the ground in blockaded Gaza, according to former security officials and other regional analysts, and it doesn’t command the group’s activities.

This has been my thought as well - placing all blame upon foreign countries for the attack, is to deny Palestine their own agency in this war. Iran has significant influence over Palestinian resistance factions but not direct command over them. Reminds me of a common view I've seen expressed in pro-Russian circles, that Zelensky is always answering to the US and has no real control over the war - I've been highly skeptical of that view, ultimately I believe it does come down to Zelensky and his administration (not to get too off-topic).

[Reg]

Pardon my language, but holy sh*t.

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Just to nip it in the bud, no, Bellingcat and the BBC have not reported that Ukrainian weapons made their way to Hamas fighters.

If you primarily get your news from social media echo chambers, odds are you are badly misinformed.

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

18 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

He's posted in approval of communism a few times here, responded with an "excited" reaction to the "Are you a communist?" poster I took a picture of at UCI, posts Second Thought videos on our Discord site, and is right in line with The Squad on his views of Israel and Palestine.

The Squad are democratic socialists, not communists.

Thanks for confirming once again your status as a gullible member of an echo chamber.

Please, learn to think critically and seek out reputable sources.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

51 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Perhaps Hamas acted independently of Iran?  The plot thickens:

Initial US intel casts doubt on direct Iran involvement in Hamas terror attack

From CNN's Zachary Cohen, Katie Bo Lillis, Natasha Bertrand and Jeremy Herb

 

Rockets are fired toward Israel from the Gaza Strip, on October 7. Fatima Shbair/AP

 

The United States has collected specific intelligence that casts doubt on the idea that Iran was directly involved in the planning, resourcing or approving of Saturday’s bloody attack on Israel by Hamas, according to several sources familiar with the intelligence. 

Still, the sources stressed that intelligence community is not ready to reach a full conclusion as they continue to look for evidence of Iranian involvement in the attack which caught both Israel and the United States by surprise. Additionally, since the attack, government officials have all pointed to Iran’s significant support for Hamas, including weapons and financing, that would have helped them even if not in a direct way.

The sources did not disclose any details about the nature of the intelligence, which one source briefed on the information said is extremely sensitive. 

But the sources said that this piece of intelligence has led US analysts to lean towards an initial assessment that the government of Iran did not play a direct role in the attack.

Lawmakers on Capitol Hill have been briefed on the information and the early skepticism amongst intelligence analysts about Iranian involvement. 

For days, senior US officials have said publicly that they have no indication that Iran was directly involved in the attack, even as they have condemned Tehran as broadly “complicit” in the attack because its historic support for Hamas. 

“We’re looking to acquire further intelligence,” national security advisor Jake Sullivan told reporters at the White House. “But as I stand here today, while Iran plays this broad role – sustained, deep and dark role in providing all of this support and capabilities to Hamas – in terms of this particular gruesome attack on October 7, we don’t currently have that information.”

Iran has for years been Hamas’ chief benefactor, providing it with tens of millions of dollars, weapons and components smuggled into Gaza, as well as broad technical and ideological support.

But Hamas maintains a degree of independence from the Iranian regime. Tehran doesn’t have advisers on the ground in blockaded Gaza, according to former security officials and other regional analysts, and it doesn’t command the group’s activities.

I was mainly going on it being stupid given the expected outcome (i.e., Israel pulverizes Gaza in retaliation).

Then again, the Palestinian leadership has a long sad record of doing stupid things that end up backfiring and causing suffering amongst their own people.

Also, as I posted yesterday, perhaps creating the suffering is the goal after all. Ruling classes often act cynically.

[Reg]

23 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

He's posted in approval of communism a few times here, responded with an "excited" reaction to the "Are you a communist?" poster I took a picture of at UCI, posts Second Thought videos on our Discord site, and is right in line with The Squad on his views of Israel and Palestine.

AOC specifically called pro-Palestinian protestors "bigots" and accused them of "callousness" just yesterday. Ilhan Omar is Palestinian-American yet she just rolls over whenever the establishment tells her to. "The Squad" doesn't stand with us.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

17 minutes ago, Reg said:

AOC specifically called pro-Palestinian protestors "bigots" and accused them of "callousness" just yesterday. Ilhan Omar is Palestinian-American yet she just rolls over whenever the establishment tells her to. "The Squad" doesn't stand with us.

How dare she not support those who murder civilians in cold blood!

P.S. to MML: Note that with one exception here, all the resident lefties, and most prominent non-resident ones, are aghast at what Hamas recently did in Israel. I don't know what echo chambers you are in, but the sample you are getting of what typical leftists typically believe appears to be highly unrepresentative.

[Anti Marine Layer]

49 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

The Squad are democratic socialists, not communists.

Thanks for confirming once again your status as a gullible member of an echo chamber.

Please, learn to think critically and seek out reputable sources.

Are redistribution of wealth, equality of outcome, and anti-meritocracy democratic socialist ideas, communist ideas, or both?

And no one who thinks critically would believe a man can become a woman, or that all religions (as opposed to all people) are equal, aka moral relativism. If moral truth is completely relative (as many leftists believe), you cannot even claim racism is a problem or that there is no objective truth. It's self-contradictory. 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

7 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Are redistribution of wealth, equality of outcome, and anti-meritocracy democratic socialist ideas, communist ideas, or both?

“Suppose Communists come out against cancer? Do we have to automatically come out for cancer?” — Studs Terkel

[roadtonowhere08]

14 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Are redistribution of wealth, equality of outcome, and anti-meritocracy democratic socialist ideas, communist ideas, or both?

And no one who thinks critically would believe a man can become a woman, or that all religions (as opposed to all people) are equal, aka moral relativism. If moral truth is completely relative (as many leftists believe), you cannot even claim racism is a problem or that there is no objective truth. It's self-contradictory. 

So which religions are the superior ones and which ones are the inferior ones?  And before you answer that, can I assume you have read their holy texts from cover to cover so you have an informed opinion?

[Reg]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

How dare she not support those who murder civilians in cold blood!

P.S. to MML: Note that with one exception here, all the resident lefties, and most prominent non-resident ones, are aghast at what Hamas recently did in Israel. I don't know what echo chambers you are in, but the sample you are getting of what typical leftists typically believe appears to be highly unrepresentative.

A lot of users here suffer from the very Western-esque belief that the whole world, or at least the majority of it, shares their exceptionalist beliefs across the board - or as the US State Department likes to call it, "the international community". That "international community" they are always referring to, along with its so-called "rules-based world order" is typically more-or-less as follows:

I have my biases but I don't sit around all day in communist Discord servers/pro-Hamas chats or whatever it is the lot of you think I do. My views are mine and my own, I only speak for myself. Forgive me for the crime of believing that Palestinians are humans and reserve the right to resist their brutal US-sponsored apartheid in all forms. Yes, "in all forms" which includes armed, violent resistance, which is legal under international law as was firmly established under South African apartheid. Did you all think Palestinian liberation was going to be dinner parties? Academic essays? Peace deals with concessions which Israel consistently rejects? Excuse me for not hyperfocusing on specific incidents by your government's adversaries while ignoring massively larger ones by your preferred hegemonic government. Maybe I frequent too many "global South" circles, but just what planet are you all living on?

Now compare that map above with the map below, of countries that recognize the state of Palestine:

Notice anything? Is it really just the rest of the world outside of the "collective West" that are all wrong here, or do you believe that you are immune to propaganda?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

8 minutes ago, Reg said:

A lot of users here suffer from the very Western-esque belief that the whole world, or at least the majority of it, shares their exceptionalist beliefs across the board - or as the US State Department likes to call it, "the international community". That "international community" they are always referring to, along with its so-called "rules-based world order" is typically more-or-less as follows:

I have my biases but I don't sit around all day in communist Discord servers/pro-Hamas chats or whatever it is the lot of you think I do. My views are mine and my own, I only speak for myself. Forgive me for the crime of believing that Palestinians are humans and reserve the right to exist their brutal US-sponsored apartheid in all forms. Yes, "in all forms" which includes armed, violent resistance, which is legal under international law as was firmly established under South African apartheid. Did you all think Palestinian liberation was going to be dinner parties? Academic essays? Peace deals with concessions which Israel consistently rejects? Excuse me for not hyperfocusing on specific incidents by your government's adversaries while ignoring massively larger ones by your preferred hegemonic government. Maybe I frequent too many "global South" circles, but just what planet are you all living on?

Now compare that map above with the map below, of countries that recognize the state of Palestine:

Notice anything? Is it really just the rest of the world outside of the "collective West" that are all wrong here, or do you believe that you are immune to propaganda?

Actually, there has been a wide variety of reactions to the Hamas attacks by governments in the global South, with no shortage of them condemning the attacks.

https://www.newarab.com/news/gaza-war-how-are-latin-american-states-reacting

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/hamas-israel-global-south/

It is possible to have sympathy with the Palestinian desire for a national home, while at the same time believing that war crimes are war crimes and are not morally justifiable.

[Reg]

4 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Actually, there has been a wide variety of reactions to the Hamas attacks by governments in the global South, with no shortage of them condemning the attacks.

https://www.newarab.com/news/gaza-war-how-are-latin-american-states-reacting

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/hamas-israel-global-south/

It is possible to have sympathy with the Palestinian desire for a national home, while at the same time believing that war crimes are war crimes and are not morally justifiable.

That's called diplomatic relations and professionalism, and they all still have to answer to the US-led imperial order, which after all, many of these countries are/were victims of (especially its foreign policy). Same with their reactions to the Russian invasion of Ukraine last year. Superficial, doesn't really mean anything. Diplomatic relations and trade continue regardless. Props to Niger for kicking out their French colonizers right now, by the way.

Hyperfocusing on specific attacks, and then being like "Welp, that attack killed civilians, let's wrap it up folks. The Palestinian cause is no more, let's just lie down and get steamrolled by Israel with no resistance" is not a rational way of looking at reality and liberation. Things get ugly. Wars of liberation always do. Even the US government has no real qualm against radical Islamism, just look at who they funded and trained in Syria (some of these were fighters that would later become current Hamas members). Saudi Arabia isn't exactly a bastion of "freedom and democracy" either, but that petrodollar talks, especially when it can be utilized against a "former ally" like Iran, which "betrayed" the US in 1979. Washington only cares about maintaining its hegemony.

It's not realistic to abandon a cause entirely when attacks like this happen, especially when considering what they have been through and what they are up against. Even more-so when it paints the oppressor as the victim.

[Iceresistance]

Scalise has been chosen as speaker, knocking off Jim Jordan.

 

Republicans Nominate Scalise for House Speaker Over Jordan (msn.com)

[Rubus Leucodermis]

15 minutes ago, Reg said:

That's called diplomatic relations and professionalism, and they all still have to answer to the US-led imperial order, which after all, many of these countries are/were victims of (especially its foreign policy). Same with their reactions to the Russian invasion of Ukraine last year. Superficial, doesn't really mean anything. Diplomatic relations and trade continue regardless. Props to Niger for kicking out their French colonizers right now, by the way.

Hyperfocusing on specific attacks, and then being like "Welp, that attack killed civilians, let's wrap it up folks. The Palestinian cause is no more, let's just lie down and get steamrolled by Israel with no resistance" is not a rational way of looking at reality and liberation. Things get ugly. Wars of liberation always do. Even the US government has no real qualm against radical Islamism, just look at who they funded and trained in Syria (some of these were fighters that would later become current Hamas members). Saudi Arabia isn't exactly a bastion of "freedom and democracy" either, but that petrodollar talks, especially when it can be utilized against a "former ally" like Iran, which "betrayed" the US in 1979. Washington only cares about maintaining its hegemony.

It's not realistic to abandon a cause entirely when attacks like this happen, especially when considering what they have been through and what they are up against. Even more-so when it paints the oppressor as the victim.

In other words, actual facts of what is said do not matter and anyone who expresses sympathy for Israeli civilians is simply being a US/Israel toady because you say so.

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

So which religions are the superior ones and which ones are the inferior ones?  And before you answer that, can I assume you have read their holy texts from cover to cover so you have an informed opinion?

Christianity is the only one that claims you are saved by grace through faith and not by doing more good things that bad things. That makes it unique. It's also the one that faces the most hostility both from other religions and secularists. It's backed by history such as fulfilled prophecies such as the temple in Israel being destroyed in A.D. 70 (Luke 21:6) and the 1948 reformation of Israel as a nation (Isaiah 11:11-12). It has also dramatically changed people's lives. However, I don't want to make this an apologetics thread.

Even Santa Claus is like a religion because he knows if you've been naughty or nice, and you get good stuff for doing more good things than bad things, as in all of the other false religions. However, if I shoot someone and then do 10,000,000,000,000 good things to make up for that, I am still guilty under most nations' laws today.

Radical wokeism says you must be a lifelong social justice warrior and an anti-racist, defund the police, oppose capitalism and do everything you can do to "be less white". It also says you can never do enough to stop systemic racism, so it's also a works-based "religion" and if you're a heretic, you're going to get cancelled, fired, labeled as a domestic terrorist etc. It has no redemption or forgiveness, only anger and payback. 

But the left claims it's offensive and arrogant to claim any one religion is better than another while at the same time they're cancelling and shaming people who don't fully agree with their pro-vaccine, anti-capitalist dogma where you're evil and must be excluded from society if you don't believe men can become women or refuse to get the COVID jab.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

18 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Christianity is the only one that claims you are saved by grace through faith and not by doing more good things that bad things. That makes it unique.

I erased everything else.  It was not relevant to my question.

I'd say that what you provided is a strike against Christianity as it does nothing to make the world a better place.  It allows people to justify their sins by living a life they want until it is time for them to move on to their afterlife.  They can then claim to be saved and have the best of both worlds.  I consider that to be a bastardization of the true underlying benefits of religion including Christianity.  Faith without action is worthless.  It's just lip service.  Action shows the true nature of a person as it shows not only intent but also the desire to improve the world on which we all live while waiting for their afterlife.

Surely you can come up with something more convincing to back up your original claim.

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

30 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

I erased everything else.  It was not relevant to my question.

I'd say that what you provided is a strike against Christianity as it does nothing to make the world a better place.  It allows people to justify their sins by living a life they want until it is time for them to move on to their afterlife.  They can then claim to be saved and have the best of both worlds.  I consider that to be a bastardization of the true underlying benefits of religion including Christianity.  Faith without action is worthless.  It's just lip service.  Action shows the true nature of a person as it shows not only intent but also the desire to improve the world on which we all live while waiting for their afterlife.

Surely you can come up with something more convincing to back up your original claim.

I’d also say it’s not very unique. Most religions are chock-full of adherents that believe that if you do this or that spiritual woo based on unprovable metaphysical assertions, it matters more than anything you do or do not do in the real world to hurt or help other people. Logical end result a world full of people willing to kill or oppress others in the name of holiness. It’s the main reason I am so skeptical of (and averse to) religion.

[Iceresistance]

Just saw an unbiased report that Israel is considering two options for this war. It's from Global Military Information from Twitter X.

 

Option 1: Hard, but limited Fighting. Withdrawing from Gaza without completely wiping out Hamas. Preferred option if Hezbollah decides to join in from the North.

Option 2: Complete Annexation of Gaza and annihilation of Hamas. Still being debated about what to do after.

[Anti Marine Layer]

HISTORY LESSON
A.D. 70 - Romans invaded Jerusalem and burned down the Jewish temple and much of the city. Jews got scattered throughout the earth, but some remained in their homeland. The Romans also renamed it from Judea to Palestine.
1920 - After the end of World War 1, the League of Nations was formed. It said that the land formerly ruled under the Ottoman Empire should become independent nations. One mandate, the Mandate of Palestine, said Palestine should become a natural home for the Jewish people. The League of Nations recognized the Jews were the indigenous people. According to the Uti possietis juris principle the land included all of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
1948 - Israel was declared an independent nation, but was immediately attacked by its Arab neighbors. Although Israel won the war, the Jews were expelled from parts of Jerusalem as well as parts of Judea and Samaria by Jordan.
1949 - A peace treaty was made between Israel and Jordan. The original borders of Israel were preserved.
1967 - Israel was attacked again in the Six Day War. They won this one too and occupied the areas taken over by the Arabs in 1948, but it was still really the Jews' land.
1994 - The Palestinian Authority took over the government of the West Bank as part of the Oslo Accords treaty. Israel agreed. The West Bank was not declared a sovereign state. Israel offered them the chance to become an independent state a few times, but each time they refused.
2006 - An election was held for who should take over the Gaza Strip and the people voted for Hamas instead of Israel. As a result, Israel started the blockade. Hamas has been in control since then and has been oppressing their own people.

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

40 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

HISTORY LESSON
A.D. 70 - Romans invaded Jerusalem and burned down the Jewish temple and much of the city. Jews got scattered throughout the earth, but some remained in their homeland. The Romans also renamed it from Judea to Palestine.

MML would be about the first to scream bloody murder if the claimed descendants owners of the land he lives on as of 70 AD were to seize it from him. Not the least bit convincing.

Plus, a very biased and one-sided account of the history of the Levant.

[Anti Marine Layer]

5 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

I erased everything else.  It was not relevant to my question.

I'd say that what you provided is a strike against Christianity as it does nothing to make the world a better place.  It allows people to justify their sins by living a life they want until it is time for them to move on to their afterlife.  They can then claim to be saved and have the best of both worlds.  I consider that to be a bastardization of the true underlying benefits of religion including Christianity.  Faith without action is worthless.  It's just lip service.  Action shows the true nature of a person as it shows not only intent but also the desire to improve the world on which we all live while waiting for their afterlife.

Surely you can come up with something more convincing to back up your original claim.

 

It basically says it is impossible for anybody to keep the law and therefore Jesus died on the cross to pay for the sins of anyone who believes in Him. That's why there were so many animal sacrifices in the Old Testament since they all pointed to Jesus, who lived a perfect life and made the final sacrifice on the cross for all who trust in Him and ask for His forgiveness. 

However the Bible also says that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) and as a result, true faith will always be accompanied by action, although those actions themselves don't save you. For example, many people who became Christians were able to overcome things such as addiction after their conversion.  Some even were able to overcome same sex attraction. They generally believe that sex is only to be done within marriage and they don't think that's authoritarian or overly restrictive. That's usually why their non-Christian friends abandon them for their puritanistic lifestyle.

Jesus also gives commands to help the poor, but those are supposed to be personal and each person is responsible for charity so that they are truly giving out of love, not obeying a government system like socialism which has forced redistribution of wealth. A large number of charities were founded by Christians as well. They also provide assistance to pregnant women and are able to talk them out of getting abortions and some of them even provide child care.

The principles of justice, equality and freedom all originated from Christianity and you can look at history to prove that. We are reading a book about it right now. Most abolitionists were Christians as well. 

There's also a lot of archeological evidence for the Bible and it's hard to imagine the apostles would have made up a false resurrection story and willingly suffered the immense persecution they had to go through.

 

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

MML would be about the first to scream bloody murder if the claimed descendants owners of the land he lives on as of 70 AD were to seize it from him. Not the least bit convincing.

Plus, a very biased and one-sided account of the history of the Levant.

There are also leftists who say we need to give our stolen land back to the native Americans so if they follow up on that logic, the land stolen in AD 70 should go back to the Jews. So when the Romans took the land that was OK and the Jews deserved it, according to today's left, but the evil colonists must give back their land to the native Americans. 

The land was officially given back to the Jews in 1948 though and if the Palestinians had not refused to become an independent state contrary to Israel's offer to them, they would not be dependent on them for their food and electricity today.

I'm not saying the Jews are 100% innocent. 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

22 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

The land was officially given back to the Jews in 1948 though and if the Palestinians had not refused to become an independent state contrary to Israel's offer to them, they would not be dependent on them for their food and electricity today.

So, then, it was the Palestinians’ responsibility to take the “offer” or lump it.

Sounds a lot like imperialism by force to me.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

46 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

It basically says it is impossible for anybody to keep the law and therefore Jesus died on the cross to pay for the sins of anyone who believes in Him. That's why there were so many animal sacrifices in the Old Testament since they all pointed to Jesus, who lived a perfect life and made the final sacrifice on the cross for all who trust in Him and ask for His forgiveness. 

However the Bible also says that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) and as a result, true faith will always be accompanied by action, although those actions themselves don't save you. For example, many people who became Christians were able to overcome things such as addiction after their conversion.  Some even were able to overcome same sex attraction. They generally believe that sex is only to be done within marriage and they don't think that's authoritarian or overly restrictive. That's usually why their non-Christian friends abandon them for their puritanistic lifestyle.

Jesus also gives commands to help the poor, but those are supposed to be personal and each person is responsible for charity so that they are truly giving out of love, not obeying a government system like socialism which has forced redistribution of wealth. A large number of charities were founded by Christians as well. They also provide assistance to pregnant women and are able to talk them out of getting abortions and some of them even provide child care.

The principles of justice, equality and freedom all originated from Christianity and you can look at history to prove that. We are reading a book about it right now. Most abolitionists were Christians as well. 

There's also a lot of archeological evidence for the Bible and it's hard to imagine the apostles would have made up a false resurrection story and willingly suffered the immense persecution they had to go through.

 

So according to you, all civility within other religions was stolen from Christianity, yes?

[SnarkyGoblin]

Can't imagine all the criticism that would be on here if the leading 2024 Democrat presidential candidate said something like this.  Another clear double standard that much of the right will just ignore because it's their Dear Leader.

https://wapo.st/46NDQGY

Quote

“It is absurd that anyone, much less someone running for President, would choose now to attack our friend and ally, Israel, much less praise Hezbollah terrorists as ‘very smart,’ ” DeSantis said in a post on X, formerly known as Twitter.

....

“I’ll never forget that Bibi Netanyahu let us down. That was a very terrible thing,” Trump said in Wednesday’s speech. “So we were disappointed by that. Very disappointed. But we did the job ourself. It was absolute precision, magnificent, beautiful job. And then Bibi tried to take credit for it. That didn’t make me feel too good. But that’s all right.”

As Trump told the story, he suggested he was recounting it publicly for the first time, and that it possibly included classified information. He was indicted in June by special counsel Jack Smith on 40 counts arising from allegedly mishandling classified documents after leaving the White House.

“I don’t think this has ever been told,” Trump said in the speech. “They’ll say, ‘Oh, it’s classified information.’ Well, maybe it is, but I don’t think so.”

Boggles my mind that it's biden who gets all the questions/criticism about mental capacity.