2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Phil]

I think it would have been very close. Many independents like myself would have voted for Bernie. And he still would have had the support of the "anyone but Trump" crowd, which was honestly the strongest support Hillary had.

How can you go from suppoorting Romney in 2012 to supporting Bernie in 2016? They're almost polar opposites.

[Guest Sounder]

How can you go from suppoorting Romney in 2012 to supporting Bernie in 2016? They're almost polar opposites.

 

 

Then clearly you hold no actual ideological convictions and instead choose to vote based on cults of personality and anti-establishment circle jerks. 

[Front Ranger]

How can you go from suppoorting Romney in 2012 to supporting Bernie in 2016? They're almost polar opposites.

I believe I answered that question a couple posts earlier.

[Phil]

You didn't address the actual quote by Sanders.

 

Personally, I give him a pass as he was probably very high when he said it.

What was that quote even in context to? What was the conversation about? That image seems suspicious to me.

[Money]

Trump held an listening session with Healthcare CEO's

 

Couple bashed Obamacare and thanked Trump for stepping in and stabilizing the market with his EO.

 

[Guest Sounder]

What was the quote in context to? What was the conversation about? That image seems suspicious to me.

It was an an essay he wrote in 1972 for the Vermont Freeman. It was edited, reviewed, and published content, not just something he said off the cuff one time when "really high".

 

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Bernie has a TON of dirt that no one even knew about because Hillary's campaign didn't want to destroy the party from within by going too hard on him in the primary. If he had made it to the general, all this s**t would have surfaced. Bernie is ******* insane.

 

Context: http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8682503/bernie-sanders-rape-fantasy

 

Here's some more fun quotes from it:

 

 

A man goes home and masturbates his typical fantasy. A woman on her knees, a woman tied up, a woman abused.

 

The man and woman get dressed up on Sunday — and go to Church, or maybe to their "revolutionary" political meeting.

[Front Ranger]

Sounder, if you think I voted for Romney because of his personality or because he's anti-establishment, I'd be interested to hear you explain how he had either of those things going for him.

 

I will admit that in 2008 I did get caught up in the Obama love fest a bit, so the cult of personality part might apply there. But the main reason I voted for him was Obamacare, as a couple people very close to me had pre-existing conditions that made affordable insurance very difficult to obtain.

[Money]

After the 7 minute video some reporter from CNN shouted at him and asked if he supported a special prosecutor on Russia. The look of some of the CEO's after that was pretty funny.

[Guest Sounder]

You didn't address the actual quote by Sanders.

 

Personally, I give him a pass as he was probably very high when he said it.

Then he was high for quite a lengthy period given that it was a written piece for a newspaper that must have made it through multiple rounds of editing and "are you sure"s before publishing.

[Front Ranger]

Main factor in voting for Romney was the economy, FYI.

[Phil]

Ah, so apparently it was part of a paragraph Sanders wrote back in the 1970s, attacking gender stereotypes. He was actually well ahead of his time.

 

Should have guessed it was a BS political hit job.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/05/29/410606045/the-bernie-sanders-rape-fantasy-essay-explained

[Front Ranger]

Then he was high for quite a lengthy period given that it was a written piece for a newspaper that must have made it through multiple rounds of editing and "are you sure"s before publishing.

It was a joke.

[Guest Sounder]

Ah, so apparently it was part of a paragraph Sanders wrote back in the 1970s, attacking gender stereotypes. He was actually well ahead of his time.

 

Should have guessed it was a BS political hit job.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/05/29/410606045/the-bernie-sanders-rape-fantasy-essay-explained

So if what he said is totally cool then why did he distance himself from it and call it "dumb"?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/28/politics/bernie-sanders-rape-essay-1972/

[Phil]

Then he was high for quite a lengthy period given that it was a written piece for a newspaper that must have made it through multiple rounds of editing and "are you sure"s before publishing.

Dig into the context of that comment and it's a complete nothingburger. It was intentionally taken out of context by the Clinton campaign, and like well behaved lapdog, you slurped it right up.

 

Advertisers and political campaigns target people like you with those catchy one liners and slogans, and you probably fall for it every time.

[Guest Sounder]

Dig into the context of that comment and it's a complete nothingburger. It was intentionally taken out of context by the Clinton campaign, and like well behaved lapdog, you slurped it right up.

 

Advertisers and political campaigns target people like you with those catchy one liners and slogans, and you probably fall for it every time.

Anyone who supports Bernie Sanders is worse than the most vile Trump supporter and should have their right to vote removed.

 

Also I was unaware that MotherJones was an official arm of the Clinton campaign. Neat. My entire point here is that the Clinton campaign never did get down in the dirt like that and run with it. They had an opportunity, and they didn't.

[Money]

Ben Stein telling it the way it is:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vACfwwisps8

[Phil]

So if what he said is totally cool then why did he distance himself from it and call it "dumb"?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/28/politics/bernie-sanders-rape-essay-1972/

Because the language was explicit and insensitive. That doesn't change the fact that the underlying message was taking a stand against gender roles in society.

 

Anyone with a brain should be able to understand this.

[Jesse]

Anyone who supports Bernie Sanders is worse than the most vile Trump supporter and should have their right to vote removed.

 

Also I was unaware that MotherJones was an official arm of the Clinton campaign. Neat. My entire point here is that the Clinton campaign never did get down in the dirt like that and run with it. They had an opportunity, and they didn't.

Wow. Do you think saying really extreme things makes you cool, you do you just ejaculate a little in your pants when you make statements like the first paragraph?

 

You come off like one of those super dogmatic mainstream Democrats that are, in reality, just as narrow minded as the Republicans you like to harp on. Which is a shame because you seem like a pretty intelligent guy otherwise.

[BLI snowman]

Dig into the context of that comment and it's a complete nothingburger. It was intentionally taken out of context by the Clinton campaign, and like well behaved lapdog, you slurped it right up.

 

Advertisers and political campaigns target people like you with those catchy one liners and slogans, and you probably fall for it every time.

 

The tears of joy were steadily abounding as Sounder opened his "I'm With Her" t-shirt care package in the mail last fall. Ranked it as one of the happiest moments of his year.

[Jesse]

Ah, so apparently it was part of a paragraph Sanders wrote back in the 1970s, attacking gender stereotypes. He was actually well ahead of his time.

 

Should have guessed it was a BS political hit job.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/05/29/410606045/the-bernie-sanders-rape-fantasy-essay-explained

Yes, I did a tiny ounce of research on it as well, and when looked at in context, it makes a whole lot more sense that it does taken completely out of context. Sure it might have come off a little crass, which is probably why he distanced himself from it later on, but compared to Trump's ***** grabbing comments it is fairly tame.

[Jesse]

The tears of joy were steadily abounding as Sounder opened his "I'm With Her" t-shirt care package in the mail last fall. Ranked it as one of the happiest moments of his year.

He reluctantly backed Hillary since he saw the Donald as a clear and present danger to our democracy, as he has done nothing but prove to be so far. What a coward. Scum of the earth!

[Phil]

Anyone who supports Bernie Sanders is worse than the most vile Trump supporter and should have their right to vote removed.

Statements like this lend credence to the idea that a mandatory voter IQ test should be implemented. You would almost certainly fail such a test.

 

Hillary Clinton wouldn't have done diddly-squat for anyone, save maybe her banker friends on Wall Street. She's left nothing but death and destruction everywhere she's been, from Libya, to Egypt, to minority communities in this country that were torn apart by the crime bills of the 90s, to the dozens of women that fell victim to Bill's urges, while she covered for him.

 

Also I was unaware that MotherJones was an official arm of the Clinton campaign. Neat. My entire point here is that the Clinton campaign never did get down in the dirt like that and run with it. They had an opportunity, and they didn't.

Uh, they actually tried, but it didn't work because the majority of voters were smart enough to see through it.

[BLI snowman]

He reluctantly backed Hillary since he saw the Donald as a clear and present danger to our democracy, as he has done nothing but prove to be so far. What a coward. Scum of the earth!

 

Sounds like the Jess was indeed almost "with her".

[Jesse]

Sounds like the Jess was indeed almost "with her".

It took a lot of careful thought and debating, but yes, I eventually wrote Sanders in. Not an easy choice but I don't regret it. Being in a state almost guaranteed to go to Clinton helped tip the scales.

 

Don't tell Sounder my address now. Now that I've been outed he might find my house and kill me. I don't even deserve one more breath of oxygen for that blunder. I am less than .

[Guest Sounder]

Statements like this lend credence to the idea that a mandatory voter IQ test should be implemented. You would almost certainly fail such a test.

 

Hillary Clinton wouldn't have done diddly-squat for anyone, save maybe her banker friends on Wall Street. She's left nothing but death and destruction everywhere she's been, from Libya, to Egypt, to minority communities in this country that were torn apart by the crime bills of the 90s, to the dozens of women that fell victim to Bill's urges, while she covered for him.

 

 

Uh, they actually tried, but it didn't work because the majority of voters were smart enough to see through it.

I actually laughed out loud at this. 

[Phil]

Yes, I did a tiny ounce of research on it as well, and when looked at in context, it makes a whole lot more sense that it does taken completely out of context. Sure it might have come off a little crass, which is probably why he distanced himself from it later on, but compared to Trump's ***** grabbing comments it is fairly tame.

I wonder who Sounder would've voted for had it been Bernie vs agent orange. My guess is the latter.

 

He also said he's "pretty far left" which implies he probably sits closer to Bernie on the spectrum. Hillary is anything but "far left" so something just isn't adding up IMO.

[Phil]

I actually laughed out loud at this.

Yeah, thousands of dead brown people is so funny, right?

 

Even funnier is the fact that you'd vote for the individual responsible for much of it.

[Guest Sounder]

It took a lot of careful thought and debating, but yes, I eventually wrote Sanders in. Not an easy choice but I don't regret it. Being in a state almost guaranteed to go to Clinton helped tip the scales.

 

Don't tell Sounder my address now. Now that I've been outed he might find my house and kill me. I don't even deserve one more breath of oxygen for that blunder. I am less than s**t.

I bet you sleep very well at night knowing that you stomped your feet and punished that mean old Wall Street shill for not meeting your purity tests!!

[Jesse]

I bet you sleep very well at night knowing that you stomped your feet and punished that mean old Wall Street shill for not meeting your purity tests!!

I did until you found out. Now I'm worried you're going to go all special forces on me and take my voting card!

[Guest Sounder]

I wonder who Sounder would've voted for had it been Bernie vs agent orange. My guess is the latter.

 

He also said he's "pretty far left" which implies he probably sits closer to Bernie on the spectrum. Hillary is anything but "far left" so something just isn't adding up IMO.

I do sit much closer to Bernie on the spectrum, but I found his entire campaign and outlook on how to accomplish anything to be far more damaging to progressivism than Trump ever could have been. I would have voted for Trump with the idea that tanking the country for four years and sacrificing the Supreme Court would be far less damaging to long term progressive goals than a Bernie presidency would have been. Bernie would have energized the right, just as Trump is energizing the left now. Trump was a short term victory for "conservatives", but will almost certainly swing the country to the left in the end. Same thing but opposite would have happened with Bernie.

 

And once again, if you don't understand how Hillary is quite far to the left by most regards, then you clearly are in over your head here.

[Phil]

I do sit much closer to Bernie on the spectrum, but I found his entire campaign and outlook on how to accomplish anything to be far more damaging to progressivism than Trump ever could have been. I would have voted for Trump with the idea that tanking the country for four years and sacrificing the Supreme Court would be far less damaging to long term progressive goals than a Bernie presidency would have been. Bernie would have energized the right, just as Trump is energizing the left now. Trump was a short term victory for "conservatives", but will almost certainly swing the country to the left in the end. Same thing but opposite would have happened with Bernie.

 

And once again, if you don't understand how Hillary is quite far to the left by most regards, then you clearly are in over your head here.

Enlighten me. Her voting record as a senator, and her record as Secretary of State, suggests otherwise.

 

I don't want links to stuff she said during the campaign. I want evidence of things she actually did while in office, before the campaign.

[Jesse]

I do sit much closer to Bernie on the spectrum, but I found his entire campaign and outlook on how to accomplish anything to be far more damaging to progressivism than Trump ever could have been. I would have voted for Trump with the idea that tanking the country for four years and sacrificing the Supreme Court would be far less damaging to long term progressive goals than a Bernie presidency would have been. Bernie would have energized the right, just as Trump is energizing the left now. Trump was a short term victory for "conservatives", but will almost certainly swing the country to the left in the end. Same thing but opposite would have happened with Bernie.

 

And once again, if you don't understand how Hillary is quite far to the left by most regards, then you clearly are in over your head here.

You actually make SOME really good points here. I do believe that Hillary would have had a similar, perhaps even more significant, boomerang effect though. Fair or not, she is one of the most reviled people in DC, especially by the right. She would have energized them as Sanders would have never done. It is my belief that a lot of potential Sanders supporters in the rust belt states (many of which he won primaries in) swung towards Trump once Bernie failed to get nominated. At least some of the electoral "upsets" in those states was due to this effect, IMO. People were in an anti-establishment mood.

 

We had a choice between an admittedly imperfect but earnest supporter of Scandinavian style democratic socialism on the left and a insecure, small minded authoritarian parading around as a populist on the right. Unfortunately we got stuck with the orange man child. That fact alone tells you how fed up people were (and still are) with establishment politics.

 

Also, looking globally, Hillary is solidly Center right. We don't have to devolve back into ad hominem if you disagree (although that was sort of fun), but that is pretty clear to anyone wanting to take the time to look at her actual policies and compare them to the rest of the world, politically.

[Phil]

You actually make SOME really good points here. I do believe that Hillary would have had a similar, perhaps even more significant, boomerang effect though. Fair or not, she is one of the most reviled people in DC, especially by the right. She would have energized them as Sanders would have never done. It is my belief that a lot of potential Sanders supporters in the rust belt states (many of which he won primaries in) swung towards Trump once Bernie failed to get nominated. At least some of the electoral "upsets" in those states was due to some of the effect, IMO. People were in an anti-establishment mood.

We had a choice between an admittedly imperfect but earnest supporter of Scandinavian style democratic socialism on the left and a insecure, small minded authoritarian parading around as a populist on the right. Unfortunately we got stuck with the orange man child. That fact alone tells you how fed up people were (and still are) with establishment politics.

 

Also, looking a globally, Hillary is solidly Center right. We don't have to evolve back into ad hominem is you disagree (although that was sort of fun), but that is pretty clear to anyone wanting to take the time to look at her actual policies and compare them to the rest of the world, politically.

This.

[Jesse]

This.

D**n. You caught it before I had a type to fix some of my typos. But glad you agree.

[Deweydog]

I just see no real argument as to why it should even be in there. It seems hypocritical to what we stand for. We got along just fine without it pre-Cold War.

 

I guess I just don't see it as being any more anachronistic than many other pieces of Americana.  I don't think it undermines the very fabric of separation of church and state as religion will always be politicized; demonized by the left and used of a weapon by the right.  

 

I'm sure I'm in the minority as I see organized religion as being tantamount to legalized fraud.  The word god just doesn't do much for me either way as it doesn't necessarily equate to the evils of said entities.  God could just as easily be the Sun.  

[Tenochtitlan]

The pledge of allegiance was ruled unconstitutional?

Apparently, but my point of saying that was just to point out that the decision was overturned and it's still used in most schools.

 

Interestingly, one of the most prominent groups in opposition to the Pledge of Allegiance in schools has been Jehovah's Witnesses.

[TT-SEA]

Trump now says that healthcare is "unbelievably complex".   He also said nobody knew how complicated it is.    

 

Moron.   Scream some more about how you will repeal and replace Obamacare "on day one".   

 

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/321318-trump-nobody-knew-that-healthcare-could-be-so-complicated

[Jesse]

Trump now says that healthcare is "unbelievably complex". He also said nobody knew how complicated it is.

 

Moron. Scream some more about how you will repeal and replace Obamacare "on day one".

 

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/321318-trump-nobody-knew-that-healthcare-could-be-so-complicated

It's sort of entertaining to watch him slowly realize being President isn't all signing executive orders and holding them up for a photo op.

 

The detail-oriented nuts and bolts of actual governing has got to be some sort of form of torture for him.

[Money]

It's sort of entertaining to watch him slowly realize being President isn't all signing executive orders and holding them up for a photo op.

 

The detail-oriented nuts and bolts of actual governing has got to be some sort of form of torture for him.

 

The bill is being written each day and they keep making changes. The real version will be done very soon, and it's going to be a good bill. It takes time to replace. In the first couple days he pretty much got rid of the individual mandate which pretty much killed Obamacare (even health care CEO's talked about how big that was and helpful) 

[Jesse]

I guess I just don't see it as being any more anachronistic than many other pieces of Americana. I don't think it undermines the very fabric of separation of church and state as religion will always be politicized; demonized by the left and used of a weapon by the right.

 

I'm sure I'm in the minority as I see organized religion as being tantamount to legalized fraud. The word god just doesn't do much for me either way as it doesn't necessarily equate to the evils of said entities. God could just as easily be the Sun.

If the "Under God" part had been in all along I think your argument would hold more water. Problem is it was put in during the height of the communist scare in the mid-50s. It was tacked on there to make a political statement in the first place, so accusing those who would rather it go back to its original form as making an unnecessary statement as well doesn't make much sense.

 

I also think your assertion that religion is demonized by the left and used as a weapon by the right is a little too black and white. There are plenty of liberal Christians and conservative atheists. Just look at you, you said it's essentially legalized fraud. I am pretty skeptical of organized religion and I'm on the left, but even I'm not that hard core Penn & Teller about it.