Polite Politics

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Why did we withdraw from the ICC?

"Enhanced Interrogation"

[Iceresistance]

25 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

"Enhanced Interrogation"

Yeah, I just researched it too, we don't need 2 Supreme Courts!

[Rubus Leucodermis]

2 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Yeah, I just researched it too, we don't need 2 Supreme Courts!

From “Putin is an international outlaw because the ICC has a warrant out on him” to this in one day. Sometimes life comes at one fast, dunnit?

[Iceresistance]

34 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

From “Putin is an international outlaw because the ICC has a warrant out on him” to this in one day. Sometimes life comes at one fast, dunnit?

Yeah, but the USA left in 2002 because of that mindset.

 

Still, Putin is indeed an International Outlaw.

[Iceresistance]

Trump is apparently preparing himself to be arrested by New York, this could cause HUGE turmoil!

 

And besides! If the evidence was found to be rushed (and tempered in their favor) and/or falsified, then the New York prosecutors will be the ones that are going to be in prison for tempering and falsifying evidence! That is called "Lying to court" and it's a serious crime itself!

[Rubus Leucodermis]

49 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Trump is apparently preparing himself to be arrested by New York, this could cause HUGE turmoil!

And besides! If the evidence was found to be rushed (and tempered in their favor) and/or falsified, then the New York prosecutors will be the ones that are going to be in prison for tempering and falsifying evidence! That is called "Lying to court" and it's a serious crime itself!

It’s a show to attract media attention. Trump won’t be indicted or arrested.

[Iceresistance]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

It’s a show to attract media attention. Trump won’t be indicted or arrested.

Oh trust me, New York is a very strong Democrat Stronghold, and the Media will CELEBRATE it.

 

They will do anything to get him.

[SnarkyGoblin]

43 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Trump is apparently preparing himself to be arrested by New York, this could cause HUGE turmoil!

 

And besides! If the evidence was found to be rushed (and tempered in their favor) and/or falsified, then the New York prosecutors will be the ones that are going to be in prison for tempering and falsifying evidence! That is called "Lying to court" and it's a serious crime itself!

We've literally known he broke the law on this for the longest time.  He was an un-named accomplice in the original Michael Cohen indictment (which Cohen admitted wrongdoing himself). 

Might be a rough week ahead.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Just now, Iceresistance said:

Oh trust me, New York is a very strong Democrat Stronghold, and the Media will CELEBRATE it.

 

They will do anything to get him.

Somehow I’m expected to believe that a system (currently run by that same so-called opposition party) too rotten to enforce basic Constitutional norms against a coup attempt by its most powerful person is going to care about that same person paying a little hush money on the side. Not even remotely plausible. Sorry.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

I will bet the first taker USD $100 (CAD $137 if you prefer to wager in Canadian funds) that Trump WILL NOT be arrested or indicted in the next 14 days (i.e. by 9:00 AM Pacific time, 1 April 2023). Payable by PayPal. Any takers? (This is an honest offer.)

[SnarkyGoblin]

2 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Oh trust me, New York is a very strong Democrat Stronghold, and the Media will CELEBRATE it.

 

They will do anything to get him.

Can you explain why you are so loyal to such an awful person? 

[Iceresistance]

9 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Can you explain why you are so loyal to such an awful person? 

I'm not loyal to him, I'd rather see DeSantis win, but if Trump wins, it is what it is.

[SnarkyGoblin]

Just now, Iceresistance said:

I'm not loyal to him

seriously? 

If you honestly feel that way, probably time to do some introspection.  Your posts are all about how he can't do anything wrong, despite all the evidence you are actively ignoring.  You make up stuff about fabricated evidence - based on what?  You aren't even getting on the 2024 DeSantis train.

I just wanted to see words explaining your support.

[Iceresistance]

Just now, SnarkyGoblin said:

seriously? 

If you honestly feel that way, probably time to do some introspection.  Your posts are all about how he can't do anything wrong, despite all the evidence you are actively ignoring.  You make up stuff about fabricated evidence - based on what?  You aren't even getting on the 2024 DeSantis train.

I just wanted to see words explaining your support.

I'd rather see DeSantis win, but if Trump wins, it is what it is.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

2 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

I'd rather see DeSantis win, but if Trump wins, it is what it is.

And this is why Trump will win the primary. Because there are basically two types of Republicans left in today’s GOP: those who adore Trump and who will not vote for anyone else, and those willing to hold their noses and vote for Trump. (The ones with principles left the party years ago thanks to Trump.)

[Iceresistance]

I think even using Nukes on Ukraine would only seal Putin's fate even faster, take a look at this.

 

 

[Andie]

23 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

And this is why Trump will win the primary. Because there are basically two types of Republicans left in today’s GOP: those who adore Trump and who will not vote for anyone else, and those willing to hold their noses and vote for Trump. (The ones with principles left the party years ago thanks to Trump.)

The forecast arrest of Trump this Tuesday will be a twist.  
Can anyone with an arrest run for President?   
This is just crazy.  DC will do anything to eliminate him.  If tables were turned Party-wise it would be very different. All hell would break loose.  

[Iceresistance]

5 minutes ago, Andie said:

The forecast arrest of Trump this Tuesday will be a twist.  
Can anyone with an arrest run for President?   
This is just crazy.  DC will do anything to eliminate him.  If tables were turned Party-wise it would be very different. All hell would break loose.  

Elon Musk projected that Trump will win in a "Huge Landslide" if he is put into handcuffs.

 

I think that is reasonable because he will be viewed as a victim. I would love to see DeSantis win.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

16 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

I think even using Nukes on Ukraine would only seal Putin's fate even faster, take a look at this.

 

 

More significantly, China would probably respond, too. The evidence is their nuclear policy: they have nukes, but they are not going around willy-nilly openly threatening to use them. They see such rhetoric as needlessly dangerous. As such, any usage of nukes would probably result in Putin getting on China’s bad side. That is significant, because currently China hasn’t really taken a side in this thing.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

8 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Elon Musk projected that Trump will win in a "Huge Landslide" if he is put into handcuffs.

I predict that if pigs fly, getting your car pooped on by mere birds will be seen as no big deal in comparison.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Elon Musk projected that Trump will win in a "Huge Landslide" if he is put into handcuffs.

 

I think that is reasonable because he will be viewed as a victim. I would love to see DeSantis win.

I don't think Trump will win a general election. No one who currently does not support him is going to change their mind.

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Trump is apparently preparing himself to be arrested by New York, this could cause HUGE turmoil!

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

I don't think Trump will win a general election. No one who currently does not support him is going to change their mind.

That, in a nutshell, is the other half of the problem facing the GOP. So, to sum up: Trump can’t lose in the primary, and he can’t win in the general.

[roadtonowhere08]

I cannot explain everything to you two.  It's not that hard.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

21 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

That, in a nutshell, is the other half of the problem facing the GOP. So, to sum up: Trump can’t lose in the primary, and he can’t win in the general.

They are basically screwed until he dies.

[roadtonowhere08]

2 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

They are basically screwed until he dies.

The GOP has been flirting with their fringe since the 90's.  It was only a matter of time before they became galvanized around a cult figure.  If the DNC is not careful, they are next.

[Anti Marine Layer]

10 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

The GOP has been flirting with their fringe since the 90's.  It was only a matter of time before they became galvanized around a cult figure.  If the DNC is not careful, they are next.

Both the Republicans and Democrats should be replaced.

[roadtonowhere08]

7 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Both the Republicans and Democrats should be replaced.

With who?  This country is too dumb to vote for pragmatism and bipartisanship.

[SnarkyGoblin]

47 minutes ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

They are basically screwed until he dies.

It only took exactly 10 more GOP senators to take care of this mess back in January 2018.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

They are basically screwed until he dies.

Or ends up as a frail old man with dementia under nursing care.

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

With who?  This country is too dumb to vote for pragmatism and bipartisanship.

Someone more classically liberal or conservative like JFK or Reagan.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

41 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Someone more classically liberal or conservative like JFK or Reagan.

Here's the thing: if something like that is really so important to you, then you're a weirdo.

I don't mean this pejoratively; just to say that believing ideology is important makes you a weirdo. The vast majority of voters don't care much about ideology. Mostly, they care about their own personal well-being, and look around desperately for others to blame when their well-being suffers.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

6 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Here's the thing: if something like that is really so important to you, then you're a weirdo.

I don't mean this pejoratively; just to say that believing ideology is important makes you a weirdo. The vast majority of voters don't care much about ideology. Mostly, they care about their own personal well-being, and look around desperately for others to blame when their well-being suffers.

The platforms and campaigns of politics are, of course, concerned mainly with pandering to such individuals.

[Anti Marine Layer]

28 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Here's the thing: if something like that is really so important to you, then you're a weirdo.

I don't mean this pejoratively; just to say that believing ideology is important makes you a weirdo. The vast majority of voters don't care much about ideology. Mostly, they care about their own personal well-being, and look around desperately for others to blame when their well-being suffers.

Most people don't like Trump's ideology.

America was one of the only nations to have freedom of religion and freedom of speech in their Bill of Rights and they set a model for other Western democracies. Their style of government was pretty much unique at the time of the Founding.

Sure Black people and women had it bad at first but the ideology of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence eventually led to their freedom too. 

I am not for prayer or Bible reading in public schools, as I would not want the Koran read in public schools either, but there was a time long ago when most people were OK with it. Also John Adams said our constitution only works for a moral and religious (not necessarily Christian) people. We used to stand for family values and abstinence. 

Today even some of the things Bill Clinton said about illegal immigration during his presidency would be considered offensive and inappropriate to many on the left.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

9 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Most people don't like Trump's ideology

Enough did that he could get elected in 2016. The Electoral College is not a small-d democratic institution, but it is not a thoroughly undemocratic one, either. There still is some correlation between a state's population and the number of electors it has.

9 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

America was one of the only nations to have freedom of religion and freedom of speech in their Bill of Rights and they set a model for other Western democracies. Their style of government was pretty much unique at the time of the Founding.

Now you're starting to go off on an ideological tangent. You may believe all that passionately, but that's beside the point. The vast majority doesn't care a great deal about ideology. That fact above can go in many ideological directions. Not all to your left are anti-freedom, believe it or not.

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Enough did that he could get elected in 2016. The Electoral College is not a small-d democratic institution, but it is not a thoroughly undemocratic one, either. There still is some correlation between a state's population and the number of electors it has.

Now you're starting to go off on an ideological tangent. You may believe all that passionately, but that's beside the point. The vast majority doesn't care a great deal about ideology. That fact above can go in many ideological directions. Not all to your left are anti-freedom, believe it or not.

People also have different concepts of what freedom means. For example, Newsom told people to come to California for freedom (mainly abortion rights) but at the same time California had a mass exodus due to strict covid mandates. Other people felt the mandates kept them safer and therefore freer.

The basic difference between classical liberalism and Marxism however is that the first believes in religious freedom and that religious people generally require less government while the second says that religion is an opioid for the masses. Both strive for equality. 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

12 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

People also have different concepts of what freedom means. For example, Newsom told people to come to California for freedom (mainly abortion rights) but at the same time California had a mass exodus due to strict covid mandates. Other people felt the mandates kept them safer and therefore freer.

The basic difference between classical liberalism and Marxism however is that the first believed in religious freedom and the other said religion is an opioid for the masses. Both strived for equality. 

It seems you really want to talk some about ideology! Very well, then. But before I do, a reminder: That makes you (and I, for I am sufficiently into ideology to be willing to entertain your desire) a weirdo. Most of the voting public just doesn't care about ideology that much. It may be sad, it may be something that needs changing, but it is also true.

And so long as it is true, the platforms and campaigns of politics will be concerned mainly with pandering to such individuals.

As for Marxism, one of the many takeaways from Marx is that he failed to appreciate sufficiently the classic liberal virtue of liberty. That much is clear, and you might be interested that even back in his day (well before the Russian Revolution) there were voices on the radical left criticizing Marx’s authoritarian tendencies.

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Someone more classically liberal or conservative like JFK or Reagan.

Labels aside, what made either of them so great to you?

[Andie]

9 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Elon Musk projected that Trump will win in a "Huge Landslide" if he is put into handcuffs.

I think that is reasonable because he will be viewed as a victim. I would love to see DeSantis win.

I agree on both statements generally but to be honest I’m not so sure Trump is the solution he was when he was elected the 1st time. 
That said this bunch of losers in office right now need to go.  Talk about embarrassing.   Can’t we just have a respected capable President for 8 yrs. No crisis or controversy???!   Plz?

 

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

It seems you really want to talk some about ideology! Very well, then. But before I do, a reminder: That makes you (and I, for I am sufficiently into ideology to be willing to entertain your desire) a weirdo. Most of the voting public just doesn't care about ideology that much. It may be sad, it may be something that needs changing, but it is also true.

And so long as it is true, the platforms and campaigns of politics will be concerned mainly with pandering to such individuals.

As for Marxism, one of the many takeaways from Marx is that he failed to appreciate sufficiently the classic liberal virtue of liberty. That much is clear, and you might be interested that even back in his day (well before the Russian Revolution) there were voices on the radical left criticizing Marx’s authoritarian tendencies.

The Founding Fathers also believed in representative democracy rather than direct democracy because they believed the second could lead to mob rule. That's why they designed the Electoral College. 

Also I heard that the Pilgrims tried out socialism, a non-authoritarian version where food and resources were supposed to be shared, and it did not work too well. Without the concept of private property, "you should not steal" becomes meaningless.

 

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Labels aside, what made either of them so great to you?

Both were patriotic and supported capitalism and they appreciated America despite its many flaws. There's a healthy concept of "America first", which means you should treat your fellow citizens like your family and by taking care of them, they are able to take care of others, such as non-citizens and people from other countries. It does not mean that other nations are the enemy.

Today all they teach about are the bad things about America such as slavery and colonialism, but slavery was practiced by all cultures throughout history and the native Americans had tribal warfare before the colonists arrived. That does not make those things right, but there are reasons people used to call us the land of liberty and opportunity and that so many people came here looking for a better life. 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

14 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Both were patriotic and supported capitalism and they appreciated America despite its many flaws. There's a healthy concept of "America first", which means you should treat your fellow citizens like your family and by taking care of them, they are able to take care of others, such as non-citizens and people from other countries. It does not mean that other nations are the enemy.

America first. Snort.

It is my experience that those who bleat “America first!” the loudest almost all, to a last man, are deadset against the concept of the welfare state. It’s usually just a sneer phrase used so shut down any concern about cruelty happening in other countries.

14 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Today all they teach about are the bad things about America such as slavery and colonialism, but slavery was practiced by all cultures throughout history and the native Americans had tribal warfare before the colonists arrived. That does not make those things right, but there are reasons people used to call us the land of liberty and opportunity and that so many people came here looking for a better life. 

Incorrect; all cultures did not practice slavery, though many did. And Trump mostly felt threatened by those who looked up to the USA and desired strongly to move there. A signature move of his presidency was building a wall to help keep people out, after all. I once went to the Reagan library and read through a couple of his old speeches about immigration and the difference between him and #45 was astounding.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

45 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

The Founding Fathers also believed in representative democracy rather than direct democracy because they believed the second could lead to mob rule. That's why they designed the Electoral College. 

Which ironically ended up artificially amplifying the effects of the very sort of demagoguery that many of those very same Founders warned about.

45 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Also I heard that the Pilgrims tried out socialism, a non-authoritarian version where food and resources were supposed to be shared, and it did not work too well. Without the concept of private property, "you should not steal" becomes meaningless.

References? The main foolishness of the Pilgrims of which I am aware was their decision to start a settlement in New England in late autumn. That does not disprove other aspects of their planning having gone bad, but I am going to have to see some good historical evidence for it.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Regarding the Pilgrims:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/11/thanksgiving-socialism-the-strange-and-persistent-right-wing-myth-that-thanksgiving-celebrates-the-pilgrims-discovery-of-capitalism.html

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Both were patriotic and supported capitalism and they appreciated America despite its many flaws. There's a healthy concept of "America first", which means you should treat your fellow citizens like your family and by taking care of them, they are able to take care of others, such as non-citizens and people from other countries. It does not mean that other nations are the enemy.

That's a whole lot of nothing, right there.  You are going by feelings and not policy or actions.

Reagan has been deified as a patriot, but lots of his actions have done a lot of harm to this country in the long run.  His environmental and working class policies were atrocious.  Private prisons and skyrocketing incarceration rate?  Reagan.  That's not "America First", that's "Big Money" first.  He was industry's b**ch.

Then we've got JFK and Vietnam.  Yeah.

You look back with rose-colored glasses.

[Chewbacca Defense]

12 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

I will bet the first taker USD $100 (CAD $137 if you prefer to wager in Canadian funds) that Trump WILL NOT be arrested or indicted in the next 14 days (i.e. by 9:00 AM Pacific time, 1 April 2023). Payable by PayPal. Any takers? (This is an honest offer.)

Tempting....though in the end I've been coping with the pessimism of anything actually happening to change now.  The one thing that makes it tempting is that it sounds like city, state and federal law enforcement are "having discussions" in preparations of something happening as soon as the coming week.

 

It also sounds like some discussions are starting to happen between the Secret Service and New York officials.  Sounds like the USS is taking the position of "whatever you guys do with him, we will be by his side at all times."  Fair enough, it is a protection afforded to all former presidents.

Now, if the question is whether or not he will do a "perp walk" to the courthouse or wherever he surrenders himself, that absolutely will not happen.  While I don't think he deserves that exception, it is probably for the best.  Enough wingnuts will come unhinged without watching their deity being paraded in front of the cameras in bracelets.

[Chewbacca Defense]

11 hours ago, Andie said:

The forecast arrest of Trump this Tuesday will be a twist.  
Can anyone with an arrest run for President?   
This is just crazy.  DC will do anything to eliminate him.  If tables were turned Party-wise it would be very different. All hell would break loose.  

If he is arrested, I think he can still run, it's not until he gets convicted (if that were to happen)....if he were convicted of a felony, maybe not?  In theory a felon cannot vote (though I think states are starting to change that unfortunately), so I would venture to guess they would not be able to hold federal office, but I am too tired to go diving into the constitution tonight.

 

As for "DC will do anything to eliminate him"  I am sorry but I am going to have to call complete bullsh*t on this.  It's becoming increasingly evident that a VAST majority of Republican want him gone, have wanted him gone, and recognize that their life would be so much easier without Trump.  Just go back to the interviews right after Jan 6, were the only people supporting Trump were the wingnuts like MTG and Boebert and worthless sacks of sh*t like Jim Jordan, Josh Hawley, and Matt Gaetz.  I'm still recovering from the whiplash from trying to keep track of McConnell, McCarthy and Graham's extreme flip-flopping on Trump.

 

And....they had their chance to be rid of him....if they had impeached him or invoked the 25th amendment, he would be out of their hair.  But the Republican leadership were too scared of Trump's supporters and showed their true spineless colors. 

[Anti Marine Layer]

1 hour ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Regarding the Pilgrims:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/11/thanksgiving-socialism-the-strange-and-persistent-right-wing-myth-that-thanksgiving-celebrates-the-pilgrims-discovery-of-capitalism.html

Some people understand socialism as a system where everyone is generous and compassionate and shares things with others. That's not socialism though, that's voluntary giving. It would be nice if everyone was that way and we had unlimited resources. 

The problem is that humans are not generally compassionate and generous.

Wealth in itself, however, is not evil, it's hoarding your wealth or loving money that is evil.

In socialism, everyone is forced to share whether they want to or not. That is not giving out of love. It also requires some sort of regulation to prevent hoarding, and all too often the government or whoever is in control of the wealth distribution begins to abuse their power.

It also reminds me of a verse from the chapter of the Bible often used in weddings, 1 Corinthians 13:3 - "If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing"

In the end, though, it's not really socialism or capitalism that is the problem, it's human nature as well as limited resources. 

[roadtonowhere08]

14 minutes ago, Mr Marine Layer said:

Some people understand socialism as a system where everyone is generous and compassionate and shares things with others. That's not socialism though, that's voluntary giving. If nobody owns anything and all resources are shared among the community, how do you prevent things like hoarding?

The problem is that humans are not generally compassionate and generous.

Wealth in itself is not evil, it's hoarding your wealth or loving money that is evil.

In socialism, everyone is forced to share whether they want to or not. That is not giving out of love. It also requires some sort of regulation and all too often the government or whoever is in control of the wealth distribution begins to abuse their power.

It also reminds me of a verse from the chapter of the Bible often used in weddings, 1 Corinthians 13:3 - "If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing"

In the end, though, it's not really socialism or capitalism that is the problem, it's human nature.

It is out of the bolded thesis that the allure of socialism shines for many.  When people are forced to become more selfless and giving, they are then exposed to the social, economic, health, and infrastructure benefits that society reaps.  That is literally the foundation of having a form of government the first place.  Socialism is just a stronger leap into that belief than most other governmental forms.  Put another way: how many people would pay taxes if they were optional?  What would happen to society as a result?

That is all predicated on the fact that a competent government is in place to oversee and faithfully follow through on the aforementioned merits.

Or

One could sum it up thusly:  If you hate socialism so much, why don't we get rid of Medicare, Medicaid, social security, the military, the FDIC, any infrastructure project, and any form of bailout to any failing company no matter what?

[roadtonowhere08]

Also, here is your daily misleading headline

Paris is burning: Protesters set city ablaze

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/03/17/paris-france-street-protests-pension-retirement-cnntm-kiley-intl-vpx.cnn