Mountain West Discussion

[Black Hole]

Picked up .22" today bringing my monthly total to 3.95". Another cluster of showers is about to move in, along with more tomorrow and Thursday. Should end up with about 4.25" or so I would guess for the month. We are around 6" in the last 40 days. Probably the wettest stretch I've had since moving to Utah.

[luminen]

Utah definitely needed it. It was a pretty dry winter from what I heard. My location has over 5" for the month now. Afternoon/early evening thunderstorms are the norm and so far for May, 19 out 26 days have had thunderstorms. There were a few plain rain days as well. I can count on one hand the number of dry days...

 

It's been wet!     

[Front Ranger]

Looked like I might stay dry today, but a late evening thunderstorm that's moved in has made it 24 of 27 days this month with rain.

 

More coming over the final few days of the month, too.

[luminen]

I saw SLC and the 15 corridor had a nice line of thunderstorms a few hours ago.

 

Tonight's storm has been pretty decent in the lightning/thunder department with some heavy rain but not too wet this time. The back-end of this storm has had a ton of lightning which is different from the others this month. Kinda strange to see a lot of lightning and few clouds.

[Black Hole]

I saw SLC and the 25 corridor had a nice line of thunderstorms a few hours ago.

 

Tonight's storm has been pretty decent in the lightning/thunder department with some heavy rain but not too wet this time. The back-end of this storm has had a ton of lightning which is different from the others this month. Kinda strange to see a lot of lightning and few clouds.

Severe weather hit areas north of me with high winds and decent sized hail. I got some thunder/lightning and brief rain. Always fun to see though. Last chance looks like tomorrow before we dry out.

[Front Ranger]

Just had a torrential downpour that lasted all of 5 minutes. The storm just blew up out of nowhere, and looks to be strengthening as it heads east. Will be interesting to see what DIA records.

[Black Hole]

I have had exactly 4.00" of rain at my house, and the airport had slightly more this month. They also had rain 18 days so far, which is a new record.

[Front Ranger]

Absolutely perfect late spring/early summer day. Light breeze, temps in the upper 60s. Went for a bike ride earlier...the long greenbelt that runs through my neighborhood is a lush, green jungle after all the rain. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[luminen]

78.5F now. I'm planning on heading out to the Table Mountain park(s) later this evening after I eat. I was up on Green Mountain yesterday evening and it was so cold, wet, and windy. My hands were having a hard time moving.   That cold front was pretty noticeable.

 

Also today will probably be the first completely dry day in the area for a LONG time. It's so novel to not have rain.

[TT-SEA]

Absolutely perfect late spring/early summer day. Light breeze, temps in the upper 60s. Went for a bike ride earlier...the long greenbelt that runs through my neighborhood is a lush, green jungle after all the rain. 

 

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Wow... the trees are not fully leafed out there yet??    That is amazing.   Its been at least 6 weeks here.

[luminen]

Some trees still have very small buds and no leaves. Then there are the trees with leaves that already have some color to them. 

[TT-SEA]

Some trees still have very small buds and no leaves. Then there are the trees with leaves that already have some color to them. 

 

Is that normal there? You are so much further south.   Did not realize the altitude had such an effect.   

 

It would be really strange to enter June with trees still budding.   Even in the worst springs up here (e.g. 2010 and 2011) the trees are fully leafed out by the first week of May.

[Front Ranger]

Wow... the trees are not fully leafed out there yet??    That is amazing.   Its been at least 6 weeks here.

 

As luminen alluded to, it all depends on the trees. Some have been fully leafed out since early April. The vast majority have been leafed out since at least 3-4 weeks ago.

 

There are a lot of different kinds around here. Most not native, of course.

[Geos]

Was just reading the posts about the trees leafing out. Around here everything is fully leafed out except for some Oaks. 

The marine influence always seems to delay the leaf out a good three weeks compared to areas 15+ miles inland.

 

Elevation and local climate influences definitely play a role when trees decide it's time to push out their leaves.

[Front Ranger]

Looks like a decent shot at our first 90 of the year on Tuesday.

[AquariusTom]

One of the more important elements of the Mountain West discussion is Snowpack. Cascades, Sierra Nevada, Colorado Plateau. All equally important. I hope this is a good place to start talking about snowpack enhancement. Maybe ?

[Front Ranger]

One of the more important elements of the Mountain West discussion is Snowpack. Cascades, Sierra Nevada, Colorado Plateau. All equally important. I hope this is a good place to start talking about snowpack enhancement. Maybe ?

 

What is "snowpack enhancement"?

[Front Ranger]

Boulder finished with 7.82" in May. Good for 5th wettest May on record.

[Black Hole]

Tropical system may impact Arizona per the last couple GFS runs. That would be odd for June.

[luminen]

Tropical system may impact Arizona per the last couple GFS runs. That would be odd for June.

 

Extremely odd since June is one of the driest months in Arizona.

[Black Hole]

Extremely odd since June is one of the driest months in Arizona.

On the 00z GFS there is a moisture tap from the first tropical system and then a direct hit from the second (although its just a low by then.) Certainly bears watching.

[Dan the Weatherman]

Extremely odd since June is one of the driest months in Arizona.

 

Not only is June one of the driest months in AZ, it is usually one of the hottest due to the lack of moisture. Later in the summer when the monsoonal flow develops, it isn't as hot on average even though individual days can be just as hot during a drier flow regime.

 

It would certainly be interesting if tropical moisture did affect AZ later this week.

[AquariusTom]

Because snowpack is so beautiful, I use the term enhancement instead of improvement= greater snow depth= more water storage. I don't know enough about the ENSO, PDO, MJO, Kelvin waves, etc. to even guess a prediction for the West . But one thing is sure- the wet will return-someday. And when it does, the Western states must be ready to save any extra water. Mountain snowpack is the best long term storage mechanism. Before I put a burr under anyone's saddle, I'll let you know I want to talk about cloud seeding, weather modification if you will, and introduce another method I refer to as weather moderation. I hope the forum moderator won't move this to separate thread-it's hard to get a discussion going from left field.  There really isn't any weather modification- except the big global climate experiment the human race is involved with now. We can't change the weather in the short term. If it's raining, and we can make it rain some more to our benefit, thats moderation, not modification. To open a general discussion- Does cloud seeding really work to improve snow pack?

[Black Hole]

Because snowpack is so beautiful, I use the term enhancement instead of improvement= greater snow depth= more water storage. I don't know enough about the ENSO, PDO, MJO, Kelvin waves, etc. to even guess a prediction for the West . But one thing is sure- the wet will return-someday. And when it does, the Western states must be ready to save any extra water. Mountain snowpack is the best long term storage mechanism. Before I put a burr under anyone's saddle, I'll let you know I want to talk about cloud seeding, weather modification if you will, and introduce another method I refer to as weather moderation. I hope the forum moderator won't move this to separate thread-it's hard to get a discussion going from left field.  There really isn't any weather modification- except the big global climate experiment the human race is involved with now. We can't change the weather in the short term. If it's raining, and we can make it rain some more to our benefit, thats moderation, not modification. To open a general discussion- Does cloud seeding really work to improve snow pack?

Cloud seeding doesn't work well. But even if somebody were to find out a way politics would see the end of it. If I make it rain here, does it rain less downstream?...you get the idea.

[Front Ranger]

Cloud seeding doesn't work well. But even if somebody were to find out a way politics would see the end of it. If I make it rain here, does it rain less downstream?...you get the idea.

 

Yeah, I agree - there's almost always unintended consequences when you mess with nature. See: Jurassic Park.

 

Warmest day of the year so far here, high of 86. Things cool back down into the 70s the next few days with t-storm chances returning.

[luminen]

For tomorrow in the Denver area, cape along the urban corridor/foothills progged at 2000-3000 J/kg, which is much higher than the recent bout of thunderstorms (usually less than 1000 J/kg).

 

Looks juicy!

[Front Ranger]

For tomorrow in the Denver area, cape along the urban corridor/foothills progged at 2000-3000 J/kg, which is much higher than the recent bout of thunderstorms (usually less than 1000 J/kg).

 

Looks juicy!

 

Definitely some serious severe potential. 

[Front Ranger]

THE FORECAST IS STILL ON TRACK...ALTHOUGH THE LOW CLOUDS MAY LIFT
BY NOON. MOIST UPSLOPE FLOW...LARGE CAPES...LOW LEVEL
SHEAR...HIGHER THAN AVERAGE HELICITIES...A JET ALOFT ALL POINT TO
THE LIKELY DEVELOPMENT OF SUPERCELLS...POSSIBLY MOVING ACROSS
METRO DENVER OR THE URBAN CORRIDOR BETWEEN 3 AND 6 PM. A SUPERCELL
TORNADO WILL BE POSSIBLE...ALONG WITH GOLFBALL TO BASEBALL
HAIL...RAINFALL RATES OF AN INCH AN HOUR.

[AquariusTom]

Cloud seeding does indeed take someone's water downwind. But so does damming the great rivers. So does pumping from the common aquifer- hey wait you can't pump that water cause some of it belongs to me- that logic doesn't make sense in the modern world of greatest gain for the common good. That logic has not stood up to the many court challenges. You can pump, you can dam, you can cloud seed. Courts say so. The problem with cloud seeding is, as BlackHole has pointed out, is that it doesn't work very well. It's the unusual case when condensation nuclei fall below the necessary level for good precipitation, all others factors being adequate. The other major problem with cloud seeding is you can't really save water when you have an excess rain situation. I'll introduce an edgy kind of subject that  might raise the hackles of some; the microwave heating of cumulonimbus clouds. Almost everyone understands that modest microwave power (300-500 watts) at very close range (in the oven) will boil water scolding hot. However, very few believe that large microwave power (10,000 Watts) focused at long range (20 miles) will heat water at the base of the cloud a tiny tiny amount. And that tiny amount of heating will cause that targeted cloud to lose the competitive edge in the growth race with it's neighboring storm. Cumulonimbus clouds compete, and when one is inhibited from growing, nearby clouds have encouraged growth by taking up the extra water vapor available. If the inhibited cloud is in the flooded lowland and the encouraged cloud is near the snow line, water is moved and stored. I'll add some drawings later to illustrate this. This is not weather modification; it is weather moderation. Everyone involved in the weather discussion should never use the term "weather modification" because the numerous internet trolls have twisted it to mean something sinister; i.e., "the government is destroying humanity with weather warfare/weather modification/etc. yada yada yada"

[Front Ranger]

Three severe t-storm warnings right now in the metro area. Just got hit by one now driving home, probably nickel-sized hail at times. 

[luminen]

I was up on Green Mountain just before the cell currently going through Denver/Aurora struck. Maybe not the smartest but it was awesome. Really loud thunder!  I had about 2 minutes before the torrential rain and hail began after I got to my car.

 

I saw hail about silver dollar size and there were piles of hail on the side of 470. I'm loving the humidity too.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

I was up on Green Mountain just before the cell currently going through Denver/Aurora struck. Maybe not the smartest but it was awesome. Really loud thunder!  I had about 2 minutes before the torrential rain and hail began after I got to my car.

 

I saw hail about silver dollar size and there were piles of hail on the side of 470. I'm loving the humidity too.

 

I was in Denver yesterday. The weather was pretty mundane. 

[Front Ranger]

That storm complex moving rapidly north towards Cheyenne is a beast.

[Front Ranger]

Multiple tornadoes in the area this evening. Continuing severe storms just dumping heavy rain and slowly moving west to the north of here.

 

 

[TT-SEA]

Multiple tornadoes in the area this evening. Continuing severe storms just dumping heavy rain and slowly moving west to the north of here.

 

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I still see trees with no leaves... its June 4th.

 

Why bother now... they are just going to turn colors soon for fall.  

[luminen]

Storms finally developing over Denver. I can see a lot of lightning so far but no thunder yet.

[Front Ranger]

Storms finally developing over Denver. I can see a lot of lightning so far but no thunder yet.

 

It just got crazy here in the past 20 minutes. At a friend's place watching the NBA finals game and it knocked out service. Took some video...will share it soon. Just non-stop lightning/thunder.

[Front Ranger]

Here's a pic I took of the building storms on my way home from work.

 

 

 

And here's the video of the intense lightning from about an hour ago. The thunder was actually pretty muted for the most part until the close rumble you hear in the video that clearly startles me. Sorry for the poor quality/vertical shot.

 

[luminen]

It just started raining and will get pretty heavy by the looks of the radar. Someone just shot off some fireworks too...lol!

 

Lots of thunder and lightning with this one although I haven't seen any cloud to ground yet (facing south). 

[AquariusTom]

CN1.tiffCN2.tiffTwo attached sketches try to illustrate how excess rainfall that is flooding lower elevation streams is moved to higher elevation for snowpack improvement. In the first sketch, cumulonimbus clouds A and B compete for the available moisture; they are both dynamically enabled to vacuum up the available water vapor represented by the dark line that parallels the elevation (slope) of the mountain. Both are producing precipitation; rain from A and snow from B. B has a slight advantage, having been on the orographic slope slightly longer. B also produced rain as it passed over the lower elevation so that now the rain from A and B and previous rain cells has created a flood condition. In sketch two, the microwave energy is focused on the base of A, and after several minutes the height stops rising and begins to decrease as the tiny heating of the microwave energy slows condensation; the water vapor can't release the latent heat of vaporization that fuels the rising column of air. In turn, B now has more water vapor to work with (represented by the fat vapor line) and it's growth is invigorated. By inhibiting A, very little or no rain falls from A and the added moisture provided by the collapsing cloud aids B in it's growth. Copious snow falls from B. The snowpack is improved-water that might be wasted or destructive in the lowland flood is moved to snowpack storage. Dr. Edward Lorenz discovered the Butterfly effect 50 years ago. We can use it to improve snowpack. The total amount of precipitation remains the same. We can't make it rain more, but we can move it to storage.