Middle East Conflict of 2023-2024 (Also including the protests related to this)

[roadtonowhere08]

1 minute ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Well, who knows, perhaps some actual damning evidence of an actual command centre under al-Shifa Hospital is about to drop. But as of right now, all the best available evidence is consistent with it being a just a hospital and nothing more.

I don't know, if I was Israel looking for some redemption, I'd be shouting from the rooftops about all the Hamas hardware I found in/under a civilian structure for the sick/injured.  Maybe it's just me.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 minute ago, Iceresistance said:

Israel also needs to absolutely clear out the tunnels because the tunnels are also being used for ambushes.

I will repeat myself: so far, nothing that has come from that hospital is consistent with it being anything but a hospital.

What is happening at tunnels someplace else is irrelevant to what is happening at the hospital.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Just now, roadtonowhere08 said:

I don't know, if I was Israel looking for some redemption, I'd be shouting from the rooftops about all the Hamas hardware I found in/under a civilian structure for the sick/injured.  Maybe it's just me.

Well, they actually did find some. But only a little bit, an amount completely consistent with what one would expect to find at a hospital in a war zone. (A hospital in a war zone can be expected to be receiving combat casualties, some of whom will have military hardware on them. That materiel will end up being stored at the hospital until someone stops by to collect it.)

I have not seen any pictures of anything remotely resembling a major command centre as Israel was alleging.

[roadtonowhere08]

Just now, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Well, they actually did find some. But only a little bit, an amount completely consistent with what one would expect to find at a hospital in a war zone. (A hospital in a war zone can be expected to be receiving combat casualties, some of whom will have military hardware on them. That materiel will end up being stored at the hospital until someone stops by to collect it.)

I have not seen any pictures of anything remotely resembling a major command centre as Israel was alleging.

I saw that, but I was addressing the claim that it was a major operations center for Hamas.  I'll be honest: I will be surprised if they find nothing more than what has already been shown, and it'll be an embarrassment for the IDF.

[Iceresistance]

I'm afraid that what is going on right now with the disruptive protests is only the beginning... We are starting to see mass doxxing of pro-Israel companies, and even homes...

Soon, if the disruptive protests don't work, they will go for more violent options... Including beating and murdering...

Trust me, the tactics for peaceful protests from MLK are vanishing before our very own eyes.
MLK's refusal of violence even when met with violence and do minimum disruption during the protesting has convinced the American public to have this mindset: "Why are we doing this to innocent people!?"

[roadtonowhere08]

26 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

I'm afraid that what is going on right now with the disruptive protests is only the beginning... We are starting to see mass doxxing of pro-Israel companies, and even homes...

Soon, if the disruptive protests don't work, they will go for more violent options... Including beating and murdering...

Trust me, the tactics for peaceful protests from MLK are vanishing before our very own eyes.
MLK's refusal of violence even when met with violence and do minimum disruption during the protesting has convinced the American public to have this mindset: "Why are we doing this to innocent people!?"

Does this bother you as well?: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/business/harvard-doxxing-truck-israel-hamas-statement/index.html

Because this stuff is not new: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing/index.html

In the case of individuals, mixing social media doxxing/blacklisting and protests will get ugly because it uses bullying and scare tactics to suppress free speech.  People should be able to protest freely without losing a job or being  blacklisted from getting a job because some moron mischaracterized them for their own political agenda.

In the case of companies doing business with Israel, the public has a right to know who does business with whom.  If people want to protest or boycott those companies, that's their right.  They do not have the right to be violent or prevent said companies from doing business though.

[Iceresistance]

Oh boy...

Brutal Scene: Pro-Palestine Supporters Clash With Police Outside DNC Headquarters Demanding Gaza Ceasefire | Video | RealClearPolitics

[Iceresistance]

9 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Does this bother you as well?: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/business/harvard-doxxing-truck-israel-hamas-statement/index.html

Because this stuff is not new: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing/index.html

We're likely in a doxxing war of some sort, the ones who promote terrorism deserve it.

 

HOWEVER! It must be kept in mind that some may have been forced to do it.

[roadtonowhere08]

1 minute ago, Iceresistance said:

We're likely in a doxxing war of some sort, the ones who promote terrorism deserve it.

 

HOWEVER! It must be kept in mind that some may have been forced to do it.

I don't think those who promote violence have a problem with being shy or gathering attention.  It's the ones who want to protest peacefully for peace who should not have their rights or lives trampled upon.

[Iceresistance]

2 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

I don't think those who promote violence have a problem with being shy or gathering attention.  It's the ones who want to protest peacefully for peace who should not have their rights or lives trampled upon.

They should not be doxxed since they are not favoring any sides of the conflict.

[roadtonowhere08]

4 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

They should not be doxxed since they are not favoring any sides of the conflict.

Well, they could favor one side or the other.  That is their right, and displaying their personal info is disgusting, and it only makes the situation worse.

Imagine you went to a pro-Israel or pro-Palestine rally to just voice support.  Your face is recognized and personal info is put up online for all to see.  I would wager your stance would dig in and you would take on more of a "**** those people" tone, wouldn't you?

[Iceresistance]

1 minute ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Well, they could favor one side or the other.  That is their right, and displaying their personal info is disgusting, and it only makes the situation worse.

Protesting for peace usually means that they don't want to favor Hamas or Israel. All they want is peace in the Middle East if that is the case.


(Also, troll accounts are usually behind most of the doxxing, and they are hard to catch)

[Iceresistance]

Really?  

Holocaust means Germany cannot talk about Israel-Hamas war, suggests Erdogan (msn.com)

[roadtonowhere08]

1 minute ago, Iceresistance said:

Protesting for peace usually means that they don't want to favor Hamas or Israel. All they want is peace in the Middle East if that is the case.


(Also, troll accounts are usually behind most of the doxxing, and they are hard to catch)

But again, even if someone is pro Hamas or for far right Israeli policies, that is their right.  I think both stances are ignorant and moronic, but neither deserve to be ruined via doxxing. 

Now if they want to stand on the corner, preaching hate and saying violent things or posting threats online, then I am sure they would be visited soon by America's finest and terminated from their job, and rightly so.

[roadtonowhere08]

7 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Really?  

Holocaust means Germany cannot talk about Israel-Hamas war, suggests Erdogan (msn.com)

Oh you bet your a** that Germany is highly sensitive to optics in this area of the world.  Don't be silly.  I am not a fan of Erdogan, but he has a point.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

From a time when evangelical Christians opposed those who called their opponents "vermin."

 

[Iceresistance]

Evidence that Hamas is doing "Collective Punishment" by hiding weapons inside schools.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

You'd think the IDF has an Arabic translator on hand.  Guess not:

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic

 

[Anti Marine Layer]

10 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

From a time when evangelical Christians opposed those who called their opponents "vermin."

 

Would it be OK to call Hitler vermin?

Yes, I know we're supposed to love our enemies, but there's many instances of David praying to destroy the wicked in the Psalms and Jesus even called the Pharisees (analogous to today's critical theorists and woke virtue signalers) a brood of vipers.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

32 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Would it be OK to call Hitler vermin?

Yes, I know we're supposed to love our enemies, but there's many instances of David praying to destroy the wicked in the Psalms and Jesus even called the Pharisees (analogous to today's critical theorists and woke virtue signalers) a brood of vipers.

So Old Testament justice, then? Is that your standard now?

[Andie]

13 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Evidence that Hamas is doing "Collective Punishment" by hiding weapons inside schools.

 

One of the oldest tricks in warfare’s book.  
If your opponent has a conscience, by all means turn it on them.  Really effective.  
Howevr, some of the “greats” ignored it in history.  Alexander the Great for one.  The Middle East doesn’t share our values but they do use them against us to great effect.  

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Andie said:

One of the oldest tricks in warfare’s book.  
If your opponent has a conscience, by all means turn it on them.  Really effective.  
Howevr, some of the “greats” ignored it in history.  Alexander the Great for one.  The Middle East doesn’t share our values but they do use them against us to great effect.  

Please expand upon this thought.  Are you referring to Middle Eastern governments, the civilians, or both.  And what values are you referring to?

[Anti Marine Layer]

Good analogy of the Hamas terrorists and the people who are cheering them on.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/19/news/gang-of-violent-monkeys-kill-10-year-old-boy-in-india/

[Iceresistance]

Now they are using the same tactics as "Just Stop Oil" and other Environmental Terrorists are doing?

 

WATCH: Pro-Palestinian protester storms field at cricket World Cup final (msn.com)

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Now they are using the same tactics as "Just Stop Oil" and other Environmental Terrorists are doing?

 

WATCH: Pro-Palestinian protester storms field at cricket World Cup final (msn.com)

That's not terrorism, that's a disruptive protest tactic.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

 

[Andie]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:01 PM, roadtonowhere08 said:

Please expand upon this thought.  Are you referring to Middle Eastern governments, the civilians, or both.  And what values are you referring to?

My best reference over the years is observing the governments. Those I’ve known individually from the ME were always very thoughtful and caring family people but that’s a handful of people.  
The governments seem so out of sync with their people in general. 

[roadtonowhere08]

3 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

 

Great post.  Great letter. 

Nobody really cares about the Palestinians.  Full stop.  And the reason why is that they are generally poor and have little money mostly due to obvious external factors.  If they did, they would have their own sovereign state by now.  All sides have blood on their hands for treating the Palestinians like either aliens in their own lands (Israelis) or political pawns (The West and most Arab governments).  Only Jordan, Syria, and Egypt have taken in large numbers of Palestinians in their countries, and even then they are not allowed citizenship (to the best of my knowledge).

2 hours ago, Andie said:

My best reference over the years is observing the governments. Those I’ve known individually from the ME were always very thoughtful and caring family people but that’s a handful of people.  
The governments seem so out of sync with their people in general. 

Gotcha.  Yes most of the governments are out of sync with their populations to varying degrees based on the country.  Iran is a great example.  The population is generally young and increasingly moderate.  They are really no different than us.  One would not guess that based on the government.  The funny part of all that is..... the U.S. and the Brits are the ones to blame for that.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/30/the-united-states-overthrew-irans-last-democratic-leader/

Finally, based most polls, our government is also very much out of sync with our values as well.  Of course we all know that already.

[roadtonowhere08]

Israel did not enter Gaza to hand it over to the Palestinian Authority, Netanyahu says

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-773964#773964

"Blah, blah, blah, eventually this land will be ours, but until then, we will keep "mowing the grass" to prevent a Palestinian state." 

[SnarkyGoblin]

13 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

 

"I won't die in silence so that you can live drunk on my blood"

Sounds like @SilverFallsAndrewmight need to read this.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

11 hours ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Nobody really cares about the Palestinians.  Full stop.  And the reason why is that they are generally poor and have little money mostly due to obvious external factors.  If they did, they would have their own sovereign state by now.  All sides have blood on their hands for treating the Palestinians like either aliens in their own lands (Israelis) or political pawns (The West and most Arab governments).  Only Jordan, Syria, and Egypt have taken in large numbers of Palestinians in their countries, and even then they are not allowed citizenship (to the best of my knowledge).

I became aware of this in my college years, when I once struck up a conversation with a Palestinian exchange student. His family were refugees that had resettled in Kuwait. I expected to hear praises of Arab solidarity. Instead, I heard stories of how Kuwait discriminated against and oppressed its Palestinian population.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

5 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

"I won't die in silence so that you can live drunk on my blood"

Sounds like @SilverFallsAndrewmight need to read this.

Sorry, what did I miss? I'll read this thing I need to read. 

Okay, I read it. Sure wouldn't want to be that poor soul. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by SilverFallsAndrew

[Iceresistance]

I really hope that is fake

Hamas used food aid sacks to smuggle bullets into Gaza, claims Israel (msn.com)

[Iceresistance]

Why Has the Left Sided With Hamas? Antisemites Are Recasting Themselves as Victims | Opinion (msn.com)

[roadtonowhere08]

1 hour ago, Iceresistance said:

Why Has the Left Sided With Hamas? Antisemites Are Recasting Themselves as Victims | Opinion (msn.com)

Only the idiots on the left side with Hamas.  The smart ones are wising up to the fact that Israel is not the massive victim it would like everyone to believe and are denouncing anyone who cause innocents to suffer with an objective lens.

[Iceresistance]

On 11/21/2023 at 2:05 PM, roadtonowhere08 said:

Only the idiots on the left side with Hamas.  The smart ones are wising up to the fact that Israel is not the massive victim it would like everyone to believe and are denouncing anyone who cause innocents to suffer with an objective lens.

Unfortunately, Hamas invaded Israel with one intent: To wipe out the Israelis.

Israel had to respond without looking weak, and if it was a weak response, Hamas gets bolder.

This kind of response? Hamas plays the victim card and will do anything to try to force Israel to commit war crimes, then use that to claim that Israel is the absolute aggressor and wants to do ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. 

In reality? Hamas tried that on the Israelis. Israel may have not started this, but they will finish it with the annihilation of Hamas and ending Hamas' exploitation of their civilians and hospitals. (Hamas is exploiting civilians by making them human shields, stealing basic necessities to fuel their war machine, and not letting them leave. They are also exploiting hospitals by setting up their bases of operation or ammo depots either at or very close to them, plus schools. They know EXACTLY where to set up stuff so they can hope to force Israel to commit war crimes.)

[roadtonowhere08]

37 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

Unfortunately, Hamas invaded Israel with one intent: To wipe out the Israelis.

Israel had to respond without looking weak, and if it was a weak response, Hamas gets bolder.

This kind of response? Hamas plays the victim card and will do anything to try to force Israel to commit war crimes, then use that to claim that Israel is the absolute aggressor and wants to do ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. 

In reality? Hamas tried that on the Israelis. Israel may have not started this, but they will finish it with the annihilation of Hamas and ending Hamas' exploitation of their civilians and hospitals. (Hamas is exploiting civilians by making them human shields, stealing basic necessities for to fuel their war machine, and not letting them leave. They are also exploiting hospitals by setting up their bases of operation or ammo depots either at or very close to them, plus schools. They know EXACTLY where to set up stuff so they can hope to force Israel to commit war crimes.)

Yes, but all of this was extremely predictable.  It all points to one thing: Trying to divide Palestinians and prevent them having a sovereign state does not, and will not work.  Ever.  That's all on Israel.  Who do you think allowed Hamas to come to power?  Israel funded them FFS!  You think everyday Palestinians want these whackjobs?  Israel wants them to be driven into Hamas' arms so they can say, "SEE?  This is why they cannot have their own state!"  It's all a strategy on Israel's part.  Bibi has admitted this!  It's a great plan if you want to expand your territory without much blowback.  Unfortunately, lots of people are waking up to this fact and are seeing it for what it is.  Rational people have always been against religious fundamentalism, but now they are seeing the other side for a change.

All of the other aspects of this crisis have been debated ad nauseum. 

Both sides are guilty, but only one side is backed (and for all intents and purposes propped up) by the most powerful entity in the world and plays with a very much stacked deck and rules in its favor.

The rest of this thread gives all the context and details of my stance.

[Iceresistance]

23 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Yes, but all of this was extremely predictable.  It all points to one thing: Trying to divide Palestinians and prevent them having a sovereign state does not, and will not work.  Ever.  That's all on Israel.  Who do you think allowed Hamas to come to power?  Israel funded them FFS!  You think everyday Palestinians want these whackjobs?  Israel wants them to be driven into Hamas' arms so they can say, "SEE?  This is why they cannot have their own state!"  It's all a strategy on Israel's part.  Bibi has admitted this!  It's a great plan if you want to expand your territory without much blowback.  Unfortunately, lots of people are waking up to this fact and are seeing it for what it is.  Rational people have always been against religious fundamentalism, but now they are seeing the other side for a change.

All of the other aspects of this crisis have been debated ad nauseum. 

Both sides are guilty, but only one side is backed (and for all intents and purposes propped up) by the most powerful entity in the world and plays with a very much stacked deck and rules in its favor.

The rest of this thread gives all the context and details of my stance.

I really hope that Israel allows them to have a sovereign state after all of this. Hamas got richer and the citizens got poorer, it was only a matter of time before tensions would rise...

[roadtonowhere08]

4 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

I really hope that Israel allows them to have a sovereign state after all of this. Hamas got richer and the citizens got poorer, it was only a matter of time before tensions would rise...

Me too, but I am not holding my breath.

[Iceresistance]

22 minutes ago, roadtonowhere08 said:

Me too, but I am not holding my breath.

There is already a lot of chatter on the media about "The Day After Israeli Takeover of Gaza" or something like that.