2016 Fall Off Topic Thread AKA Football or Politics

[Phil]

CNN is definitely worse than Fox News and you know it.

 

I don't recall anyone at Fox News giving Trump the questions to the debate before hand, as CNN did for Hillary. Or anyone at Fox News attending a private dinner party at Trump's campaign manager's house prior to covering the election, as CNN anchors did for Hillary/Podesta. I also don't recall anyone at Fox News asking the RNC for questions to ask at a hosted debate, as CNN did to the DNC.

 

Don't go down that road. It's incomparable. There is a difference between bias and straight-up collusion.

Fox is worse I think, simply because they try hard to hide their biases under their "fair and balanced" mantra. At least CNN has been open about their anti-Trump bias. They're smart enough to know that the American people will see through it.

[Phil]

I hope the Falcons kick some Patriots a**!!

Never thought I'd find myself rooting for the Falcons. Brady is the epitome of New England sports culture..an entitled, whiny, cheating piece of dog s**t.

[Phil]

This is a bigger issue for the U.S. than you think. Mexico is a big trade partner. Trump is causing this nonsense due to his insistence of Mexico paying for the wall.

 

This isn't even a negotiation. That implies that there is a healthy middle ground. Mexico WILL NEVER pay for the wall.

Technically, Trump can "force" Mexico to pay for the wall through a blocking of remittences, installment of border tariffs, etc.

 

Mexico will end up paying for the wall in some form. Stupid too, because the majority of illegal immigration occurs via tourism conduits like airlines and cruises.

[Anti Marine Layer]

This is pretty funny - the Affordable Plumbing Act.

 

http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2016/01/the-affordable-plumbing-act.html

 

Also Gallup poll shows Obama had one of the lowest average approval ratings out of any president.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/202742/obama-averages-job-approval-president.aspx

[Phil]

That means they will cost more, though. We pay our workers more. For now at least...

The more I look at this mathematically, the more I find myself agreeing that the corporate tax rate is probably too high. It's more than just differences in the values of various currencies at work here. The question is, how would we pay for a reduction in the corporate tax rate, let alone an across-the-board tax cut, all while expanding the military and spending trillions on infrastructure upgrades? The money has to come from somewhere, and I think slashing the military budget and reforming entitlements are how it'll have to happen.

 

When you're 19+ trillion in debt, you're absolutely doing something wrong. I know most seem apathetic towards the national debt, but it will be a huge problem in the near future unless we dramatically change the structure of our economic machine and learn to live within our means, as a country.

[Phil]

It's not actually a "Muslim ban". If you read the wording, it's (initially) a total refugee ban encompassing all religions, then pending the degree of "vetting" (whatever the heck that means), some refugees will be allowed in, with religious minority groups receiving priority.

 

Media needs a good story.

[Jesse]

It's not actually a "Muslim ban". If you read the wording, it's (initially) a total refugee ban encompassing all religions, then pending the degree of "vetting" (whatever the heck that means), some refugees will be allowed in, with religious minority groups receiving priority.

 

Media needs a good story.

A ban on refugees is a pretty big story.

[Jesse]

Lol classic - "ban on Muslims" is a certain way to put it, likely just regurtiated from the latest headlines. It's a temporary immigration and refugee halt from countries that have a history of harboring, producing, and assisting terrorists.

 

You act like Middle Eastern countries didn't already hate us...

Middle Eastern countries "hate" us? What exactly does that even mean? The governments? The people? All of the people? Some of the people?And which middle eastern countries? Some of them? All of them? Most of them?

 

It's the sort of overly simplistic thinking in that last sentence that Trump thrives on.

[Phil]

A ban on refugees is a pretty big story.

I agree it's a big story, but calling it a "Muslim Ban" is an inaccurate, politically motivated statement that will only further divide the country politically and emotionally. I'd argue the media is largely responsible for the divide in this country, actually. They make a living playing on the many divisions we have, blowing them out of proportion, etc. It's actually becoming a problem and I don't think it's going to end well..

[Jesse]

I agree it's a big story, but calling it a "Muslim Ban" is an inaccurate, politically motivated statement that will only further divide the country politically and emotionally. I'd argue the media is largely responsible for the divide in this country, actually. They make a living playing on the many divisions we have, blowing them out of proportion, etc. It's actually becoming a problem and I don't think it's going to end well..

Civil War?

 

I agree that the media is largely to blame for the plight we are on. And leaders like Trump feed off of the extreme division like parasites.

[Guest happ]

I agree it's a big story, but calling it a "Muslim Ban" is an inaccurate, politically motivated statement that will only further divide the country politically and emotionally. I'd argue the media is largely responsible for the divide in this country, actually. They make a living playing on the many divisions we have, blowing them out of proportion, etc. It's actually becoming a problem and I don't think it's going to end well..

 

Negative reaction to Trump is quite strong & some of it comes from puzzled/ alarmed Republicans. I know some posters consider New York Times/ Wall Street Journal as irrelevant but noted conservative writers are expressing real concern.

[Deweydog]

Middle Eastern countries "hate" us? What exactly does that even mean? The governments? The people? All of the people? Some of the people?And which middle eastern countries? Some of them? All of them? Most of them?

 

It's the sort of overly simplistic thinking in that last sentence that Trump thrives on.

I think you're equally overcomplicating the issue.

 

There is a balance where acknowledging and mitigating threats to our security does not have to prompt bigotry or a complete lack of compassion.

[Jesse]

I think you're equally overcomplicating the issue.

 

There is a balance where acknowledging and mitigating threats to our security does not have to prompt bigotry or a complete lack of compassion.

 

I think you are attempting to oversimplify my viewpoint now. I never said anything close to what you are implying in the last sentence. My only point was that things are more nuanced than "All Middle Eastern Countries hate us." A perfectly reasonable assertion if you take it at face value and don't immediately attach baggage to it based upon what I imagine must be negative run-ins with Bernie supporters in your own family/social circle.

 

Maybe call your sister and talk things out? Sounds like you might have more to say to her.

[Jesse]

Need to post this again. This is one of Matt's favorite tools, and he uses it all the time. It is an incredibly insidious way of framing an argument:

 

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/logical-fallacies/false-equivalence-logical-fallacies/

[Deweydog]

I think you are attempting to oversimplify my viewpoint now. I never said anything close to what you are implying in the last sentence. My only point was that things are more nuanced than "All Middle Eastern Countries hate us." A perfectly reasonable assertion if you take it at face value and don't immediately attach baggage to it based upon what I imagine must be negative run-ins with Bernie supporters in your own family/social circle.

 

Maybe call your sister and talk things out? Sounds like you might have more to say to her.

This has nothing to do with Bernie. Bernie isn't the president.

[Jesse]

This has nothing to do with Bernie. Bernie isn't the president.

 

Maybe I should have said liberals (or what you perceive to be "liberals").

 

But good way to dodge all of my other points.

[Jesse]

Now comes the part where Matt makes a sweeping assumption about my mood or state of mind today in an attempt to discredit any strong points I may have made.

[Deweydog]

Need to post this again. This is one of Matt's favorite tools, and he uses it all the time. It is an incredibly insidious way of framing an argument:

 

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/logical-fallacies/false-equivalence-logical-fallacies/

I think you just struggle with trying to be a reasonable voice and snapping back to your overreactive spring/summer 2016. Totally understandable it would be a rough transition.

[Jesse]

Now comes the part where Matt makes a sweeping assumption about my mood or state of mind today in an attempt to discredit any strong points I may have made.

 

Nailed it.

[Deweydog]

Maybe I should have said liberals (or what you perceive to be "liberals").

 

But good way to dodge all of my other points.

What point?

 

The fact not every middle eastern country hates us? I think that's a pretty obvious exaggeration and doesn't represent the rationale behind this "ban." It's a very difficult spot to be in. They are preemptive measures in a time where reactive is far more PC.

[snow_wizard]

Lol classic - "ban on Muslims" is a certain way to put it, likely just regurtiated from the latest headlines. It's a temporary immigration and refugee halt from countries that have a history of harboring, producing, and assisting terrorists.

 

You act like Middle Eastern countries didn't already hate us...

 

Well put.  It is disquieting to have people entering from countries that do indeed hate us.  I also continue to wonder why there are so many more young males than women, children, and elderly.

[Deweydog]

Nailed it.

I'm sorry I said inversion season was ending.

[Jesse]

What point?

 

The fact not every middle eastern country hates us? I think that's a pretty obvious exaggeration and doesn't represent the rationale behind this "ban." It's a very difficult spot to be in. They are preemptive measures in a time where reactive is far more PC.

 

You're being unfair with me Matt. This has been going on for awhile and was part of the reason for my earlier "blow ups" on the political side, even though you quickly worked to absolve yourself of any guilt in the eyes of others.

[snow_wizard]

This just warms my heart.  His parents should be proud!

 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/01/28/teacher-receives-pushback-compared-build-wall-shirt-swastika/

[Deweydog]

You're being unfair with me Matt. This has been going on for awhile and was part of the reason for my earlier "blow ups" on the political side, even though you quickly worked to absolve yourself of any guilt in the eyes of others.

Be specific. I don't recall having to work too hard to absolve myself of anything.

 

You spent several months last year being without a doubt the biggest antagonist when it came to political discussion, but somehow that's my fault? Who's not being fair?

 

You're the only one here with this issue, whether they supported Bernie or a ham sandwich.

[Phil]

Negative reaction to Trump is quite strong & some of it comes from puzzled/ alarmed Republicans. I know some posters consider New York Times/ Wall Street Journal as irrelevant but noted conservative writers are expressing real concern.

Negative reaction is one thing. I'm very concerned about Trump's insecurities and tendency to act on impulse, not to mention his many blatantly racist/sexist statements (whether they be intentional or not).

 

However, deliberate misrepresentation(s) for the sole purpose of generating headlines is something that needs to be avoided because, as Jesse noted, it creates and/or worsens the very divisions that allow people like Trump to rise to power. It's also a self-amplifying process, in that people become emotionally invested at the expense of logical reasoning, which not only increases the desire for media propaganda, but pushes people towards radical, destructive political leaders who thrive on the anger and fear generated by this propaganda. It's dangerous.

[snow_wizard]

Negative reaction to Trump is quite strong & some of it comes from puzzled/ alarmed Republicans. I know some posters consider New York Times/ Wall Street Journal as irrelevant but noted conservative writers are expressing real concern.

 

Why?  Because he's actually doing something conservative instead of cowering to the liberals like most Republicans have in recent years?

[Jesse]

Negative reaction is one thing. I'm very concerned about Trump's insecurities and tendency to act on impulse, not to mention his many blatantly racist/sexist statements (whether they be intentional or not).

 

However, deliberate misrepresentation(s) for the sole purpose of generating headlines is something that needs to be avoided because, as Jesse noted, it creates and/or worsens the very divisions that allow people like Trump to rise to power. It's also a self-amplifying process, in that people become emotionally invested at the expense of logical reasoning, which not only increases the desire for media propaganda, but pushes people towards radical, destructive political leaders who thrive on the anger and fear generated by this propaganda. It's dangerous.

Well said.

[Phil]

Turn on your TV for a daily dose: today it is the ban on Muslims w/o any plan/ coordination

Remember, these news agencies are competing with dozens of other news agencies for the same dwindling block of viewers, so they're going to exaggerate their stories to the very edge of the truth, whenever possible (and I recognize the irony in my mentioning of this, lol).

 

I'd recommend turning off your TV and researching the policy proposals yourself. You'll probably find most of these executive orders to be fundamentally un-American, as I do, but these stories you're hearing from TV talking heads are loaded with spin and mischaracterization(s).

[snow_wizard]

I'm having a lot of fun watching George Soro's kicking and screaming about Trump.  Anything that drives that anti American a$$hat insane is good with me!  I can't wait to see how Trump and Bannon decide to deal with his antics.

[Deweydog]

I'm having a lot of fun watching George Soro's kicking and screaming about Trump. Anything that drives that anti American a$$hat insane is good with me! I can't wait to see how Trump and Bannon decide to deal with his antics.

Sounds criminal.

[snow_wizard]

Sounds criminal.

 

The guy is an absolute scoundrel.  To make matters worse he automatically declares that anyone against him is an anti Semite.  It's not possible to hate him for what he represents apparently.  This coming from a guy that sold out his own people during the holocaust.  Pure evil IMO.

[Deweydog]

The guy is an absolute scoundrel. To make matters worse he automatically declares that anyone against him is an anti Semite. It's not possible to hate him for what he represents apparently. This coming from a guy that sold out his own people during the holocaust. Pure evil IMO.

The guy is a piece of work. I was more referring to the administration handling him. Sounds criminal.

[Tenochtitlan]

The guy is an absolute scoundrel.  To make matters worse he automatically declares that anyone against him is an anti Semite.  It's not possible to hate him for what he represents apparently.  This coming from a guy that sold out his own people during the holocaust.  Pure evil IMO.

 

George Soros was born in 1930...he was 14 when the Holocaust ended.

[Jesse]

George Soros was born in 1930...he was 14 when the Holocaust ended.

Jim was looking at alternative facts.

[FroYoBro]

Looks like the refugee ban was just put on pause by the ACLU and a federal judge. 

[Jesse]

Looks like the refugee ban was just put on pause by the ACLU and a federal judge.

The d*ckless wonder won't like this.

[Deweydog]

The d*ckless wonder won't like this.

Nancy Pelosi?

[Jesse]

Nancy Pelosi?

Lol.

 

I'm going to be really interested to see how he reacts to this. Expect a ridiculous late night tweet.

 

Realizing he isn't a king and can be overruled by checks and balances might be a hard pill to swallow.

[Deweydog]

Lol.

 

I'm going to be really interested to see how he reacts to this. Expect a ridiculous late night tweet.

 

Realizing he isn't a king and can be overruled by checks and balances might be a hard pill to swallow.

I'm sure he's not pleased and will make it known in a less than eloquent manner, but I also imagine this was predicted by many within the circles. Something this rash and primarily symbolic is hard to maintain through the legal maze.