Middle East Conflict of 2023-2024 (Also including the protests related to this)

[Iceresistance]

This is for the situation in the Middle East and for that only!

 

It has been reported that Israel has bombed a Hospital because of Hamas hiding in there.

[Anti Marine Layer]

It says Middle EasT

[Iceresistance]

11 minutes ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

It says Middle EasT

Forgot the Caps Lock was on when I was putting in the "t" in "East"

[SnarkyGoblin]

32 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

This is for the situation in the Middle East and for that only!

 

It has been reported that Israel has bombed a Hospital because of Hamas hiding in there.

What's strange about this was that narrative is neither Israel's OR Hamas.  I wonder where you heard it.

Israel says it was Hamas and Hamas says it was Israel.  US has a finger up its nose.

[Iceresistance]

17 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

What's strange about this was that narrative is neither Israel's OR Hamas.  I wonder where you heard it.

Israel says it was Hamas and Hamas says it was Israel.  US has a finger up its nose.

 

 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

To quote Hilary Clinton, what difference does it make? 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

Seriously though, blowing up their own hospital sounds pretty par for the cause for Palestinians. 

[Iceresistance]

Uh oh...

 

Fact Check: Taliban Flags Were Waved at a Pro-Palestine Demonstration at Florida Atlantic University? (msn.com)

[Andie]

This just in.  Very interesting piece to the puzzle. -

TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) — Russian President Vladimir Putin arrived in Beijing on Tuesday for a visit that underscores China’s support for Moscow during its war in Ukraine as well as Russian backing for China’s bid to expand its economic and diplomatic influence abroad.

The two countries have forged an informal alliance against the United States and other democratic nations that is now complicated by the Israel-Hamas war. China has sought to balance its ties with Israel against its relations with Iran and Syria, two countries that are strongly backed by Russia and with which China has forged ties for economic reasons as well as to challenge Washington’s influence in the Middle East.

[Deweydog]

It’s coming.

[roadtonowhere08]

Defense contractors be like:

[Deweydog]

4 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Uh oh...

 

Fact Check: Taliban Flags Were Waved at a Pro-Palestine Demonstration at Florida Atlantic University? (msn.com)

Worse than that…

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/cambridgeshire-cat-breaks-guinness-world-record-for-having-the-world-s-loudest-purr/ar-AA1ipdls

[SilverFallsAndrew]

I have a pretty bad feeling about this whole situation. The reaction to the "hospital blast" shows it is pretty obviously a false flag. It seems to have been pretty effective at whipping the regions populous into a frenzy, which I am sure was the intent. We have a President and Administration effectively sleepwalking into the abyss...

[SilverFallsAndrew]

It's also interesting how Egypt gets a pass for having a secure border and keeping out desperate refugees while the United States isn't allowed to have a border.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

8 hours ago, SilverFallsAndrew said:

It's also interesting how Egypt gets a pass for having a secure border and keeping out desperate refugees while the United States isn't allowed to have a border.

The one model I really want to see the USA follow when it comes to refugee policy is that of a dictatorship that really does not care very much about human rights.

[Iceresistance]

Just saw a Reddit Video that may have confirmed on who blew up the Hospital. That video is from r/ConflictFootage, I can't put the link here because the link is complicated. 

 

It shows Hamas Rockets firing, then the Hospital explodes. It may have been caused by Hamas, and possibly a rare accidental one.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

2 hours ago, Iceresistance said:

Just saw a Reddit Video that may have confirmed on who blew up the Hospital. That video is from r/ConflictFootage, I can't put the link here because the link is complicated. 

 

It shows Hamas Rockets firing, then the Hospital explodes. It may have been caused by Hamas, and possibly a rare accidental one.

No iron dome in Gaza 

[Anti Marine Layer]

2 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

The one model I really want to see the USA follow when it comes to refugee policy is that of a dictatorship that really does not care very much about human rights.

Depends on if they're really refugees or terrorists posing as refugees. They have 50 options besides the United States.

What about white supremacist refugees from Ukraine?

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Just now, Anti Marine Layer said:

Depends on if they're really refugees or terrorists posing as refugees. They have 50 options besides the United States.

 

Yes, Egypt is the model when it comes to human rights. Because smaller government and more freedom, I guess.

[Anti Marine Layer]

39 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Yes, Egypt is the model when it comes to human rights. Because smaller government and more freedom, I guess.

They're also supporting the blockade of Gaza Strip.

[Anti Marine Layer]

 

[Rubus Leucodermis]

Earlier I wondered: Who put Hamas up to it?

The premise of my question was that the attacks were not something Hamas would think up on their own, because the eventual outcome would be counterproductive for Hamas. (I mean, really, they didn’t think Israel would retaliate massively?)

The best theory I have come across so far is that nobody put them up to it, and the attacks inside Israel were not intended to be so widespread or comprehensive. Hamas attacked with as many fighters as they did because they expected fierce resistance at the militarized border with Israel. They didn’t expect the vast majority of their infiltration attempts to be so successful; they expected only one or two of them to be (and with greatly diminished numbers due to casualties at the border).

The goal was, with those one or two successful infiltrations, to kidnap a small amount of hostages and use them as bargaining chips (Israel is holding a lot of Hamas members in prison).

Hamas simply had no idea their invasion attempts would be so successful, and had made no plans for what to do if they were. The level of carnage that resulted was more an organic result of armed individuals who loathed everything Israel and Israeli than a preplanned massacre.

At least that’s the theory.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

16 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Earlier I wondered: Who put Hamas up to it?

The premise of my question was that the attacks were not something Hamas would think up on their own, because the eventual outcome would be counterproductive for Hamas. (I mean, really, they didn’t think Israel would retaliate massively?)

The best theory I have come across so far is that nobody put them up to it, and the attacks inside Israel were not intended to be so widespread or comprehensive. Hamas attacked with as many fighters as they did because they expected fierce resistance at the militarized border with Israel. They didn’t expect the vast majority of their infiltration attempts to be so successful; they expected only one or two of them to be (and with greatly diminished numbers due to casualties at the border).

The goal was, with those one or two successful infiltrations, to kidnap a small amount of hostages and use them as bargaining chips (Israel is holding a lot of Hamas members in prison).

Hamas simply had no idea their invasion attempts would be so successful, and had made no plans for what to do if they were. The level of carnage that resulted was more an organic result of armed individuals who loathed everything Israel and Israeli than a preplanned massacre.

At least that’s the theory.

 

Sounds just as plausible as any other sane hypothesis at the moment.  Lies and propaganda are omnipresent from all sides.

[Stormy]

Middle East war update. 

https://www.youtube.com/live/zuJQqjKnKXE?si=ldoR3I1VXwpwqPxE

I'm surprised no one has posted (maybe I missed it) anything about that rocket which actually hit a parking lot and not the hospital itself, which is great news that I've heard yesterday already from multiple sources, and all evidence seems to show it was fired by Hamas and maybe didn't go where intended or went awry. 

[Andie]

Joe Biden just said he was in Israel as a U.S. Senator right before the Six Day War. Another provable lie by our president. Joe, you became a Senator in 1973, and the Six Day War was in 1967.  

Next up, Joe Biden advised at the Treaty of Versailles.  

[SnarkyGoblin]

8 hours ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

Earlier I wondered: Who put Hamas up to it?

The premise of my question was that the attacks were not something Hamas would think up on their own, because the eventual outcome would be counterproductive for Hamas. (I mean, really, they didn’t think Israel would retaliate massively?)

The best theory I have come across so far is that nobody put them up to it, and the attacks inside Israel were not intended to be so widespread or comprehensive. Hamas attacked with as many fighters as they did because they expected fierce resistance at the militarized border with Israel. They didn’t expect the vast majority of their infiltration attempts to be so successful; they expected only one or two of them to be (and with greatly diminished numbers due to casualties at the border).

The goal was, with those one or two successful infiltrations, to kidnap a small amount of hostages and use them as bargaining chips (Israel is holding a lot of Hamas members in prison).

Hamas simply had no idea their invasion attempts would be so successful, and had made no plans for what to do if they were. The level of carnage that resulted was more an organic result of armed individuals who loathed everything Israel and Israeli than a preplanned massacre.

At least that’s the theory.

 

I heard that's what Hamas said. Basically a "we're bad but we're normally not THAT bad.

An unforgivable "mistake" that's for sure.

[SnarkyGoblin]

On 10/17/2023 at 10:55 PM, SilverFallsAndrew said:

I have a pretty bad feeling about this whole situation. The reaction to the "hospital blast" shows it is pretty obviously a false flag. It seems to have been pretty effective at whipping the regions populous into a frenzy, which I am sure was the intent. We have a President and Administration effectively sleepwalking into the abyss...

Saw something like this miles away, regardless if it was intentional or not.  Accidents happen and that entire region is kindling.

When does hezlbollah, who is 100 times more powerful than Hamas militarily, join?    Before or after Israel takes over what little land Palestinians have?

This is a nightmare scenario for pacifists.

[Chewbacca Defense]

14 minutes ago, Andie said:

Joe Biden just said he was in Israel as a U.S. Senator right before the Six Day War. Another provable lie by our president. Joe, you became a Senator in 1973, and the Six Day War was in 1967.  

Next up, Joe Biden advised at the Treaty of Versailles.  

Really?  The speech I saw he referenced the Yom Kippur War, which was in 1973. 

Regardless, he has of course had his moments...Add to the mix Trump thinks we are on the brink of WW2 and that he is running against Obama instead of Biden and we've got a heck of a presidential race ahead of us. 

 

Just also saw an interview from today or yesterday where Trump was interviewed on his way into the courtroom.  He was complaining about how he could not be on the campaign trail because he had to be at the trials.

He rambled on about some other stuff as only Trump can then he was asked if he would be at the trial tomorrow, and he said "No, I'm going to a professional golf tournament at Doral"  but...you just said 2 minutes ago you had to attend the trial....you couldn't campaign because of the trial....

[Iceresistance]

Everyone mixes up every once in a while, no one is immune to forgetfulness.

[Iceresistance]

BBC could be in serious trouble for refusing to call Hamas "Terrorists," especially after their mass killing of Israeli civilians when they invaded Israel

[hawkstwelve]

I don't know, call me a skeptic but I don't believe Hamas was just like "yeah, let's gather all these militants on paragliders, train them for two years for this specific attack, give it an operation name and everything" just to... take a couple Israeli prisoners. They might have been surprised with how easily it was pulled off but it wasn't some "oops, we don't know the strength of our own power" moment.

Maybe it was a coincidence but Israel was on the brink of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia. That would have been horrible for Iran. So what happens? Hamas attacks and pretty much nixes that deal immediately. Biden is heading over for a meeting with Arab leaders to calm the waters. Not good for Iran. So what happens? A "rogue rocket" lands on a hospital in Gaza and generates incredible fury among the Palestinian-supporting public across the Middle East, causing most of those Arab leaders to cancel the meeting.

It seems pretty clear to me that Hamas is the puppet and Iran is the puppeteer. I don't think any of this is happening by accident. Question becomes: What is the ultimate end goal? Just general anarchy? Suck the US into a Middle East war and make everyone forget about what Russia, Iran's newfound BFF and buyer of mass weaponry, is doing in Ukraine? Wipe Israel off the face of the earth? Only time will tell. 

[SnarkyGoblin]

Sorry for the weird link, but this Atlantic op-ed touches on some of the stuff we talked about. 

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Finternational%2Farchive%2F2023%2F10%2Fisrael-palestine-war-hamas-gaza-misconceptions%2F675675%2F

Fyi

12 ft ladder is a free service that lets you bypass some soft paywalls that lets Google scrape all their content but not end users:  The Atlantic is one of the content sites where it works.

Still....if you can afford it, buy a journal subscription or 2 that does actual journalism finding actual facts.  Don't be fooled by those armchair "journalists" aka not blogspot, Facebook feed, or personalized Google, apple, msft algorithms.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

1 hour ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

I heard that's what Hamas said. Basically a "we're bad but we're normally not THAT bad.

An unforgivable "mistake" that's for sure.

If a Hamas spokesman said it on the record, that just adds credence to the theory.

And of course the bloodshed they unleashed was totally unjustifiable whether or not the attack was planned in advance to be that way.

[Iceresistance]

9 minutes ago, Rubus Leucodermis said:

If a Hamas spokesman said it on the record, that just adds credence to the theory.

And of course the bloodshed they unleashed was totally unjustifiable whether or not it was planned in advance to be that way.

The same applies to the Russians invading Ukraine.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

53 minutes ago, hawkstwelve said:

I don't know, call me a skeptic but I don't believe Hamas was just like "yeah, let's gather all these militants on paragliders, train them for two years for this specific attack, give it an operation name and everything" just to... take a couple Israeli prisoners. They might have been surprised with how easily it was pulled off but it wasn't some "oops, we don't know the strength of our own power" moment.

Maybe it was a coincidence but Israel was on the brink of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia. That would have been horrible for Iran. So what happens? Hamas attacks and pretty much nixes that deal immediately. Biden is heading over for a meeting with Arab leaders to calm the waters. Not good for Iran. So what happens? A "rogue rocket" lands on a hospital in Gaza and generates incredible fury among the Palestinian-supporting public across the Middle East, causing most of those Arab leaders to cancel the meeting.

It seems pretty clear to me that Hamas is the puppet and Iran is the puppeteer. I don't think any of this is happening by accident. Question becomes: What is the ultimate end goal? Just general anarchy? Suck the US into a Middle East war and make everyone forget about what Russia, Iran's newfound BFF and buyer of mass weaponry, is doing in Ukraine? Wipe Israel off the face of the earth? Only time will tell. 

I would avoid theories that give the various actors a great deal of (Iran in the above case) or almost no (Hamas) credit. Iran is no all-powerful mastermind, and Hamas does not contain nothing but the terminally stupid. Both, like all human organizations, have some brilliant minds, a whole lot of mediocre ones, and some stupid ones. And both are plagued by groupthink and all the other typical forms of human organizational malfunction.

Hamas itself didn't like the prospect of more peace breaking out between Israel and Arab nations, either. Plus as you wrote they had obviously been planning the attacks for a few years — i.e. since well before recent plans to normalize relations. Israel released over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners just to get one soldier — Gilad Shalit — back. Given that, scoring a handful of bargaining chips in a border skirmish would give Hamas the reasonable expectation of a huge prisoner swap.

[Rubus Leucodermis]

9 minutes ago, Iceresistance said:

The same applies to the Russians invading Ukraine.

Exactly, and Russian pro-government sources have not been shy about their resentment at the collapse of the Soviet empire, and their dreams of reconstituting a greater Russia.

It is quite often the case in conflicts that at least some of the stated beliefs of the aggressor, unlikable though that aggressor may be, are actually the best and most logically consistent explanation for the aggressor’s actions.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

29 minutes ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Sorry for the weird link, but this Atlantic op-ed touches on some of the stuff we talked about. 

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Finternational%2Farchive%2F2023%2F10%2Fisrael-palestine-war-hamas-gaza-misconceptions%2F675675%2F

Fyi

12 ft ladder is a free service that lets you bypass some soft paywalls that lets Google scrape all their content but not end users:  The Atlantic is one of the content sites where it works.

Still....if you can afford it, buy a journal subscription or 2 that does actual journalism finding actual facts.  Don't be fooled by those armchair "journalists" aka not blogspot, Facebook feed, or personalized Google, apple, msft algorithms.

You'd probably be stunned to learn I have a paid subscription to the Atlantic. I find it worthwhile despite their extreme left wing bias.

[SilverFallsAndrew]

I've always been a big fan of Tablet. Obviously a very pro-Israel bias, but I am very pro-Israel, so it doesn't bother me, but I can also acknowledge this is a source every bit as biased as something like WoPo or the Atlantic. Anyways, this piece is interesting.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/the-hell-of-urban-warfare

[Anti Marine Layer]

5 hours ago, SnarkyGoblin said:

Saw something like this miles away, regardless if it was intentional or not.  Accidents happen and that entire region is kindling.

When does hezlbollah, who is 100 times more powerful than Hamas militarily, join?    Before or after Israel takes over what little land Palestinians have?

This is a nightmare scenario for pacifists.

Yes, we should have compassion on the innocent and even those who are not innocent. We are told to love our enemies and pray for their repentance and salvation.

However, there is no Palestinean race. There is only the Jewish race and the Arabic race. Here's how it all started. Abraham was promised a child by God and became impatient when his wife Sarah was not becoming pregnant. Hagar, a slave woman, gave birth to Ishmael (Genesis 16:11-12)

11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    toward[b] all his brothers.”
    
So the descendants of Ishmael (the Arabs) are compared to wild donkeys and these verses describe the struggle that has been going on between the Jews and the Arabs throughout the ages.

The Jewish race comes from Isaac who was miraculously born to Abraham's actual wife Sarah in her old age, rather than a slave woman. He was the promised child that gave birth to the nation of Israel.

Later God promised Moses the land of Canaan to the Israelites, but first they had to get out of Egypt where Pharaoh enslaved them and would not let them go. That's where the Passover comes from. However, the Canaanites were evil people who sacrificed their children to idols amongst other horrible things. Sounds a lot like pro-abortion people sacrificing their unborn babies to the idol of "my body" today. They were told to completely wipe out the Canaanites and they got rid of most of them but not all of them as they entered the Promised Land. So Israel officially belongs to the Jews and God used them as a tool to execute His wrath on the Canaanites.

By not getting rid of all the Canaanites, the Israelites began to get corrupted by their culture, much like the secular Christian-hating left is corrupting American culture today. However the Jews own sinful nature was also to blame. When they became disobedient they were exiled to Assyria and Babylon but later entered back into their land. They stayed there until the birth of Jesus.
 
However much like today's "social gospel" which says we must reform society rather than individuals to get rid of racism and other problems, they got angry when Jesus told them their main problem was their sin. They really wanted Him to free them from the Roman oppression and create heaven on Earth, just like some leftists think they can do today. That anger, among other things, led the Jews to crucify Jesus. As a punishment, the Romans completely took over Jerusalem in AD 70 and burned down the temple and most of the city as Jesus had prophesied. This put the Jews in exile once again and they were scattered throughout the world. The Romans also renamed the land from Israel to Palestine hoping to wipe out all memory of Israel. So once again, there is no Palestinean race.

In 1948, fulfilling yet another prophecy, the Jews returned back to their land and the nation of Israel was reestablished. Nothing like this has ever happened in history. The land was actually given to them earlier around 1920 by the United Nations.

After returning to their land, the Jews were immediately attacked by their wild donkey Arabic enemies but they won the war. They also won the Six Day war against the Arabs in 1967 and that's when they started to occupy the Gaza Strip. The land was officially theirs as a result of the victory, but the Arabs refused to leave.

Also remember, the Arabs have plenty of land and their holy city is Mecca, just like the Jews' holy city is Jerusalem.

People who hate Israel for the blockade on Gaza should also hate Egypt for also supporting this blockade if they wish to be consistent.

 

[SnarkyGoblin]

1 hour ago, Anti Marine Layer said:

Yes, we should have compassion on the innocent and even those who are not innocent. We are told to love our enemies and pray for their repentance and salvation.

However, there is no Palestinean race

Stopped reading here