March Weather in the Pacific Northwest

[Phil]

Hard to say with that one. July 1911 had the 5th warmest average JUL max at Snoqualmie Falls. But it was also the 4th warmest at Concrete, which has a similar geographic location on the western slopes of the Cascades.

 

That or both thermos were over-exposed. Wouldn't be a shocker since we're talking about the early 20th century COOP network.

Yeah, for whatever reason the folks at NOAA-ESRL aren’t buying the warm July idea.

[Jesse]

I agree with the sun exposure on the warm days.    

 

And I have seen much worse in early July... the 4th and 5th were obviously beautiful days.    

 

1911 featured long periods of dry weather from March into September.. and many days with big diurnal swings implying dry air and sun.    It would obviously be warmer now... all things being equal.

 

Probably not a good idea to use faulty data to try to fit a square analog peg into a round hole, nonetheless.

[wx_statman]

The weather website I go to is pretty reputable but I guess they haven't updated their records in several years. The 71 did sound fishy because of the record heat we've been getting in spring the past several years. What website do you go to for records?

 

I'm actually curious what website you're using? They don't sound very reputable at all, considering their data is at least 5 years out of date. You can use the WRCC (daily records currently updated through 2016), our own Portland NWS office website (currently updated through 2015, kind of a joke that they can't update their own records), and the best source of them all - Threadex:

 

http://threadex.rcc-acis.org/ 

 

Records are updated daily for all major first-order stations in the US. 

 

I hope that helps!

[Phil]

It's really hard for me to wrap my head around any July up there being 2.5F warmer than Portland. Unless there was some sort of persistent, abnormal setup that favored warmth for downslope locations but somehow we were left out down here. That is usually more of an inversion season phenomenon, not mid-summer.

NOAA ESRL has a big ridge, but it’s centered pretty far offshore, just licking the PNW. Could that explain some of these readings?

[Jesse]

NOAA ESRL has a big ridge, but it’s centered pretty far offshore, just licking the PNW. Could that explain some of these readings?

 

It seems doubtful to me.

[wx_statman]

It's really hard for me to wrap my head around any July up there being 2.5F warmer than Portland. Unless there was some sort of persistent, abnormal setup that favored warmth for downslope locations but somehow we were left out down here. That is usually more of an inversion season phenomenon, not mid-summer.

 

I dunno. It might have to do with where the ridge axis kept setting up during the month. Maybe 500mb heights were consistently higher up there. It's happened in other months too, like July 1958. Clearbrook averaged a warmer July max than PDX. I definitely wouldn't rule out overexposure in 1911 though. 

[TT-SEA]

Hard to find daily data from 1911.  

 

Landsburg goes back to 1903 but missing temperature data from 1911.    I also tried Kent and it was also missing data from 1911.

 

Ended up finally finding daily data from Sedro-Woolley which is on average is cooler than the Snoqualmie Valley.   

 

Here is July of 1911...  

 

 

 

Here is my area again...

 

[wx_statman]

Yeah, for whatever reason the folks at NOAA-ESRL aren’t buying the warm July idea.

 

That's a good point. If the reanalysis says average temps, that's what I would go with. Much more robust data than looking at a couple COOP's.  

[TT-SEA]

Probably not a good idea to use faulty data to try to fit a square analog peg into a round hole, nonetheless.

 

I can tell it was a spring and summer that I would have loved.

 

There are also many years in my spreadsheet with spring and summer seasons that I would not have loved.   

[Phil]

I can tell it was a spring and summer that I would have loved.

 

There are also many years in my spreadsheet with spring and summer seasons that I would not have loved.

Can you post June?

[MossMan]

Not many artificial sugar choices around back in 1911.

No Talenti Gelato either...how horrible!!

[TT-SEA]

Here is the late May through late June period in 1911 from Sedro-Woolley.   

 

You can spin this however you want... but this is a very nice late spring and early summer period by my standards.    And it matches Snoqualmie Falls very well.   Big diurnal swings here as well.   It was likely a sunny period... and very dry.  

 

 

[wx_statman]

Here is the late May through late June period in 1911 from Sedro-Woolley.   

 

You can spin this however you want... but this is a very nice late spring and early summer period by my standards.    And it matches Snoqualmie Falls very well.   Big diurnal swings here as well.   It was likely a sunny period... and very dry.  

 

 

 

You should chop off those decimal points. False precision. 

[SilverFallsAndrew]

July 1911 was pretty warm in Salem. Especially by early 20th Century standards. Some pretty warm lows too...

 

https://climate.usurf.usu.edu/reports/e15daily.php?stn=USW00024232&year=1911&month=7&unit=EN&network=direct:ghcn&sidebar=0

[TT-SEA]

You should chop off those decimal points. False precision. 

 

No doubt.   I formatted the Sedro-Woolley data quickly here.    

[Deweydog]

No Talenti Gelato either...how horrible!!

Most froyo joints had less than a dozen topping choices too.

[wx_statman]

No doubt.   I formatted the Sedro-Woolley data quickly here.    

 

So annoying how Utah Climate Center adds those random fractions. Don't know why they do that. 

[Frontal Snowsquall]

I'm actually curious what website you're using? They don't sound very reputable at all, considering their data is at least 5 years out of date. You can use the WRCC (daily records currently updated through 2016), our own Portland NWS office website (currently updated through 2015, kind of a joke that they can't update their own records), and the best source of them all - Threadex:

 

http://threadex.rcc-acis.org/

 

Records are updated daily for all major first-order stations in the US.

 

I hope that helps!

Thanks!

 

I go to Intellicast. Here is what I was looking at.

 

http://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?location=USOR0275

 

The latest record they have for March is 2005 so they must haven't updated it in years. I could understand them not updating it since it's a global site and it would take time for up to date information. It would be neat though if they did update all their records.

[TT-SEA]

Here is the late May through late June period in 1911 from Sedro-Woolley.   

 

You can spin this however you want... but this is a very nice late spring and early summer period by my standards.    And it matches Snoqualmie Falls very well.   Big diurnal swings here as well.   It was likely a sunny period... and very dry.  

 

 

 

 

 

So... for some stupid reason Snoqualmie Falls did not have temp data for part of 2010.   

 

But it has precip data.   Here is the same period from 2010.    I don't really give a crap about the temps in this period anyways.  Its irrelevant with this much rain!    I cannot find anything similar in the historical record going back to 1895.

 

This was the start of summer in 2010... and why I say it sucked royally.   Its justified.  And Jesse wants to compare 1911 and 2010?   OK.   

 

 

[wx_statman]

Thanks!

 

I go to Intellicast. Here is what I was looking at.

 

http://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?location=USOR0275

 

The latest record they have for March is 2005 so they must haven't updated it in years. I could understand them not updating it since it's a global site and it would take time for up to date information. It would be neat though if they did update all their records.

 

Ah, I see. I definitely wouldn't trust Intellicast. They're a commercial outfit with little motivation to keep their stuff updated. They're just looking for click-throughs from people doing Google searches for Portland weather. They get their ad revenue whether their daily records are updated or not. 

 

I would always go with a gov't source, especially a dedicated interface like Threadex/ACIS (funded by NOAA with the sole purpose of providing real-time climate data for decision makers). 

[wx_statman]

So... for some stupid reason Snoqualmie Falls did not have temp data for part of 2010.   

 

But it has precip data.   Here is the same period from 2010.    I don't really give a crap about the temps in this period anyways.  Its irrelevant with this much rain!    I cannot find anything similar in the historical record going back to 1895.

 

This was the start of summer in 2010... and why I say it sucked royally.   Its justified.  And Jesse wants to compare 1911 and 2010?   OK.   

 

 

 

That's brutal! I never realized how wet it was up there during that stretch in 2010. 

[James Jones]

And suddenly everything snaps into focus. That looks like a pretty cool and wet first ten days of July.

 

Still, that period only brings the average high down to 83.6. Would be really unusual for your location to see an average high 2.5 degrees warmer than Portland in July, especially one with such a cool first 1/3 (when your location was probably notably cooler) and hot last 2/3 (when they would likely run much warmer).

 

My guess is there were some exposure issues with that thermometer on warm days.

 

Yeah, I'm calling BS on that data. It would take quite an unusual pattern to get that kind of disparity.

 

And no, Tim, the old Portland station wasn't situated in a forest, it was very much urban. You simply don't get temp spreads of 69/51 in June and 66/51 in September (5th coldest on record for downtown) without highly persistent cloud cover.

[Jesse]

So... for some stupid reason Snoqualmie Falls did not have temp data for part of 2010.   

 

But it has precip data.   Here is the same period from 2010.    I don't really give a crap about the temps in this period anyways.  Its irrelevant with this much rain!    I cannot find anything similar in the historical record going back to 1895.

 

This was the start of summer in 2010... and why I say it sucked royally.   Its justified.  And Jesse wants to compare 1911 and 2010?   OK.   

 

 

I was never directly comparing 1911 to 2010. July/August 2010 were obviously much drier than May/June though. The late spring/early summer period is very different from mid to late summer, as far as precip climo goes.

 

My point was that even though July/August 2010 may have looked mostly dry on your spreadsheet, sky cover data would show you that there were many peristent marine layer days in there. Which you have expressed great dislike for. You are assuming you would have liked a lot of summers in those old data sets which were probably much cloudier than you are realizing.

[BLI snowman]

Kind of a moot point about 1911 since Tim would have legitimately had a stroke that September. Negates the pretty July!

[TT-SEA]

Yeah, I'm calling BS on that data. It would take quite an unusual pattern to get that kind of disparity.

 

And no, Tim, the old Portland station wasn't situated in a forest, it was very much urban. You simply don't get temp spreads of 69/51 in June and 66/51 in September (5th coldest on record for downtown) without highly persistent cloud cover.

 

Sedro-Woolley lines up very well with Snoqualmie Falls in 1911.   And Concrete does as well.

 

There might have been exposure issues... but it was likely a sunny spring and summer overall and there is no doubt that there were many extended periods of very dry weather.

 

It was pure heaven compared to 2010. 

[TT-SEA]

I was never directly comparing 1911 to 2010. July/August 2010 were obviously much drier than May/June though. The late spring/early summer period is very different from mid to late summer, as far as precip climo goes.

 

My point was that even though July/August 2010 may have looked mostly dry on your spreadsheet, sky cover data would show you that there were many peristent marine layer days in there. Which you have expressed great dislike for. You are probably assuming you would have liked a lot of summers in those old data sets which were likely much cloudier in reality.

 

I doubt it.   The low temperatures would not have been so cool unless it was clear on many nights.

 

A persistent marine layer shows up in the daily record out here with light precip on many days due to morning drizzle and light rain.  We saw that in 2010 even though the totals were not significant.   And the diurnal swings are not so large.  

 

I can also find some summers back then that do look like they featured a more persistent marine layer.   

[TT-SEA]

Kind of a moot point about 1911 since Tim would have legitimately had a stroke that September. Negates the pretty July!

 

First half of September 1911 was pretty wet... second half was quite dry.

 

And October 1911 was also quite dry.   

 

I would not have minded that so much after an incredible March - August period.   Remember that after that wonderful start to summer in 2010... we also had the wettest September ever.    1911 was so far superior to 2010.  

[TT-SEA]

That's brutal! I never realized how wet it was up there during that stretch in 2010. 

 

It was terrible.   Complaints about 2010 are very justified.  

[Jesse]

I doubt it.   The low temperatures would not have been so cool unless it was clear on many nights.

 

A persistent marine layer shows up in the daily record out here with light precip on many days due to morning drizzle and light rain.  We saw that in 2010 even though the totals were not significant.   And the diurnal swings are not so large.  

 

I can also find some summers back then that do look like they featured a more persistent marine layer.   

 

Sort of a moot point since all the temperature data on those spreadsheets is questionable, IMO.

 

I guess I am not going to bellyache over whatever buys you peace of mind. It's not like you can time travel back to those summers and enjoy them.

[TT-SEA]

Kind of a moot point about 1911 since Tim would have legitimately had a stroke that September. Negates the pretty July!

 

 

Yeah... this is truly horrifying!   I would have loved this period.   

 

[TT-SEA]

Sort of a moot point since all the temperature data on those spreadsheets is questionable, IMO.

 

I guess I am not going to bellyache over whatever buys you peace of mind. It's not like you can time travel back to those summers and enjoy them.

 

Yeah... I am sure it was cloudy, rainy, and cold all summer.   Every summer.   Its all bad data.   Even when other stations match up perfectly.   They were working together.   

 

My spreadsheet data is the from the same site that wxstatman uses all the time.    You say "spreadsheets" like its my data.    Its directly from the Utah climate site.   Look it up.   You can do comparisons from the same era too.  

 

For example... the data from Snoqualmie Falls from 1907 paints a much different summer picture.   One that I would not have enjoyed (except for July).    It rained on 20 days from early June through early July and then on the majority of days in August.   They were not all awesome summers.   But the majority were really nice.

[wx_statman]

July 1911 was definitely interesting if you look at the AVG MAX for all stations in the Seattle CWA. All of the locations away from the water and up against topography were favored, including Quinault up against the Olympics. Even Cedar Lake in the Cascades averaged 80.6 that month.

 

[Phil]

Yeah... this is truly horrifying! I would have loved this period.

 

You forgot the first half.

[wx_statman]

All this talk of 1911, but it was the summers of 1909 and 1910 that were remarkable (for lack of heat). Salem didn't hit 90 until Aug. 18th in 1909, totaling 4 days that year. Followed up by only 3 days in 1910, with none after July 19th. 

[TT-SEA]

July 1911 was definitely interesting if you look at the AVG MAX for all stations in the Seattle CWA. All of the locations away from the water and up against topography were favored, including Quinault up against the Olympics. Even Cedar Lake in the Cascades averaged 80.6 that month.

 

1911 was a beautiful weather here... I have no doubt.   

 

• Arctic blast in January... an amazing number of dry days in March and April... and 6.5 inches of snow in the middle of April.
• Almost no rain from the middle May until the last week of June.
• 82/52 on the 4th of July (corroborating evidence... Sedro-Woolley had 85 on the 4th)
• Big heat wave in the middle two weeks of July.   A beautiful August with rain on just 2 days.
• A beautiful and cool second half of September and October with several frosty mornings.
• A decent November with 11 dry days.
• And to top it all off... a white Christmas and cold air all the way through New Years.   

 

 

That is one awesome year.   With a strong Nina... heading into a big solar minimum.   

[TT-SEA]

You forgot the first half.

 

 

I am pointing out that it was FAR from all bad.    Two rainy weeks in early September 1911 and then 6 more weeks of mostly gorgeous weather through the end of October.   That is fricking amazing after such a beautiful summer.   I would expect and even welcome a rainy period in early September after such a gorgeous March - August period.    

[ShawniganLake]

I had snow fall, but not stick on May 22, 2013. Silver Falls recorded 41/35 that day.

 

I was told by neighbors there was sticking snow here in May 2011, but Silver Falls didn't record anything.

 

Unfortunately Silver Falls snowfall records are very unreliable. 4/22/61 probably had snow up here. 45/32 with 0.75" of precip. Would make sense that snow fell in the morning.

The latest I have seen snow was a slushy trace on May 6, 2002. It snowed quite hard that morning but with temps above freezing on May 6th, not much stuck.

[wx_statman]

The latest I have seen snow was a slushy trace on May 6, 2002. It snowed quite hard that morning but with temps above freezing on May 6th, not much stuck.

 

That was a pretty remarkable cold airmass for BC. Lots of monthly record lows set up there.

[Deweydog]

A 24 year old ****** bag named Ty Cobb hit .420 for the Detroit Tigers in 1911.

[TT-SEA]

All this talk of 1911, but it was the summers of 1909 and 1910 that were remarkable (for lack of heat). Salem didn't hit 90 until Aug. 18th in 1909, totaling 4 days that year. Followed up by only 3 days in 1910, with none after July 19th. 

 

1909 and 1910 look like Goldilocks summers in the Snoqualmie Valley data.

 

10 days with measureable rain in JJA in 1909 

 

11 days with meaasureable rain in JJA in 1910

 

Lots of days with lows in the 40s and highs in the upper 70s and low 80s in both summers.

 

So much nicer than the summer of 1907 there... which had rain on 33 days in JJA and many days with highs in the 60s.